I just stumbled across this topic, scanned it a bit and want to contribute.
I'm a big fan of active speakers. I use a THEL (www.thel.de) filter myself (German made, 24dB/oct optimized on perception). From that filter I drive a 6-channel Classé CAV-150, incorporating 6 150 Watts channels. The assertion the you better buy the best stereo-amp your money can buy doesn't apply. In the case of my system, I would probably need a more expensive CA-400 to equal the performance I have.
Due to the far more efficient use of amplifier power, a smaller 6-channel amp does just fine.
Some images:
My system (picture taken while trying to see what my new speakers will look like) Black box with blue LED is the filter, bottom box (red LED) the Classé CAV-150
The filter. Thel supplies PCB units.
Just build the in a cabinet and voilà
My filter looks exactly like that internally. Dual mono power supply that is big enoug to drive a small power stage.
Thel also has high-end power amp modules in two sizes:
Small (good enough for a multi-channel power amp for active set-up)
Large
Or you can mount all these modules on a plate and add some more modules like DC-protection and automatic switch-on on music signal and you can shove a whole 3-way active module in the back of your speaker:
Or build a multi-channel amp and set up the power supply according to your needs:
Of course you can also integrate the filters in the multi-amp casing so you eliminate a lot of interlinks....
I have the THEL filter now for couple of years, and the performance is phenomenal. Setting it up takes little time and afterwards setting the levels for left and right exactly identical makes that the stereo image gets holographic precision.
I consider the only way up for me is a DEQX. In the near future I will take the DEQX for a test-run....
A colleague DIY-er was so friendly to offer taking his unit over as soon as my speakers are finished.
I'm a big fan of active speakers. I use a THEL (www.thel.de) filter myself (German made, 24dB/oct optimized on perception). From that filter I drive a 6-channel Classé CAV-150, incorporating 6 150 Watts channels. The assertion the you better buy the best stereo-amp your money can buy doesn't apply. In the case of my system, I would probably need a more expensive CA-400 to equal the performance I have.
Due to the far more efficient use of amplifier power, a smaller 6-channel amp does just fine.
Some images:
My system (picture taken while trying to see what my new speakers will look like) Black box with blue LED is the filter, bottom box (red LED) the Classé CAV-150
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The filter. Thel supplies PCB units.
Just build the in a cabinet and voilà
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
My filter looks exactly like that internally. Dual mono power supply that is big enoug to drive a small power stage.
Thel also has high-end power amp modules in two sizes:
Small (good enough for a multi-channel power amp for active set-up)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Large
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Or you can mount all these modules on a plate and add some more modules like DC-protection and automatic switch-on on music signal and you can shove a whole 3-way active module in the back of your speaker:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Or build a multi-channel amp and set up the power supply according to your needs:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Of course you can also integrate the filters in the multi-amp casing so you eliminate a lot of interlinks....
I have the THEL filter now for couple of years, and the performance is phenomenal. Setting it up takes little time and afterwards setting the levels for left and right exactly identical makes that the stereo image gets holographic precision.
I consider the only way up for me is a DEQX. In the near future I will take the DEQX for a test-run....
A colleague DIY-er was so friendly to offer taking his unit over as soon as my speakers are finished.
Re: electro voice merlin
The Merlin units ceased production over 6 or 7 years ago.
They do have a reputation among the pros for sounding very good and at least one of the guys over at AA uses one for residential use, or did
All settings must be done thru a serial port from a user running Win 98. No adjusments on the unit - no buttons/knobs _grin_
If you were to locate a unit on the cheap - you would need to be sure to have the software, or verify that you could obtain the software from EV.
The tech that I talked with at EV said he would send me a copy of the software (at that point in time)
No doubt about it, would take some effort.
No doubt about it, if you could pull it together on the cheap, would be killer for the bucks.
tlparker said:
The Merlin units ceased production over 6 or 7 years ago.
They do have a reputation among the pros for sounding very good and at least one of the guys over at AA uses one for residential use, or did
All settings must be done thru a serial port from a user running Win 98. No adjusments on the unit - no buttons/knobs _grin_
If you were to locate a unit on the cheap - you would need to be sure to have the software, or verify that you could obtain the software from EV.
The tech that I talked with at EV said he would send me a copy of the software (at that point in time)
No doubt about it, would take some effort.
No doubt about it, if you could pull it together on the cheap, would be killer for the bucks.
Re: BSS minidrive vs. omnidrive
The minidrive is a 336 and the Omndrive compact Plus is a 366.
There are older versions of Omnidrive - Probably the best reference is the numbers.
Main difference is 96Khz chip vs 48K
The absolute best tool I found for comparing differences between virtually all of the digital crossovers is an Excel spreadsheet by Binkster at
http://www.binkster.net/DSP_list.xls
I don't know when he last updated it.
Can be viewed with Excel.
I think Microsoft makes a freeby excel viewer for viewing if you don't run Excel. They used to, so I would assume still do.
Some info at
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/processing/frame.html
click on crossover and DSP's
Then click BSS.
They used to be the place to find the best discounted price for a new one - 25% off? or 20% I can'te remember
tlparker said:
The minidrive is a 336 and the Omndrive compact Plus is a 366.
There are older versions of Omnidrive - Probably the best reference is the numbers.
Main difference is 96Khz chip vs 48K
The absolute best tool I found for comparing differences between virtually all of the digital crossovers is an Excel spreadsheet by Binkster at
http://www.binkster.net/DSP_list.xls
I don't know when he last updated it.
Can be viewed with Excel.
I think Microsoft makes a freeby excel viewer for viewing if you don't run Excel. They used to, so I would assume still do.
Some info at
http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/processing/frame.html
click on crossover and DSP's
Then click BSS.
They used to be the place to find the best discounted price for a new one - 25% off? or 20% I can'te remember
triamp with active XO
There are a lot of approaches to an active XO, but I think that brutefir on a Linux box with RME Multiface output is hard to beat.
My system:
1 JBL 2226H per channel, each in 10 cu ft sealed box, crossed at 650Hz (for now at least)
1 Coral M-100 compression driver on a Fostex wooden horn per channel, crossed 650Hz and 8KHz
1 Visaton TL 16 super tweeter per channel, crossed at 8KHz
Amps
Bass - Bryston 3B
Mids - custom SET
High - Crown DC150A
DAC - RME multiface
software: Linux, jackd, qjackctl, brutefir, octave (for FIR generation)
testing: ClioWin
I test at the sweet spot with sinusoidal sweeps, then use FIR2 in octave to generate corrective EQ for each driver. The xo points have been changed several times, and I'm happy with them at the moment.
I have not tried DRC yet, but now that I have xos I like, that will happen soon.
I use the SPDIF input on the Multiface as input from a windows PC so I can play anything windows will play on this box. With 8192 tap filters on each driver, the latency is quite low and works fine with video.
I encourage anyone interested in active XOs to try brutefir + octave with the RME multiface. It's a great solution.
There are a lot of approaches to an active XO, but I think that brutefir on a Linux box with RME Multiface output is hard to beat.
My system:
1 JBL 2226H per channel, each in 10 cu ft sealed box, crossed at 650Hz (for now at least)
1 Coral M-100 compression driver on a Fostex wooden horn per channel, crossed 650Hz and 8KHz
1 Visaton TL 16 super tweeter per channel, crossed at 8KHz
Amps
Bass - Bryston 3B
Mids - custom SET
High - Crown DC150A
DAC - RME multiface
software: Linux, jackd, qjackctl, brutefir, octave (for FIR generation)
testing: ClioWin
I test at the sweet spot with sinusoidal sweeps, then use FIR2 in octave to generate corrective EQ for each driver. The xo points have been changed several times, and I'm happy with them at the moment.
I have not tried DRC yet, but now that I have xos I like, that will happen soon.
I use the SPDIF input on the Multiface as input from a windows PC so I can play anything windows will play on this box. With 8192 tap filters on each driver, the latency is quite low and works fine with video.
I encourage anyone interested in active XOs to try brutefir + octave with the RME multiface. It's a great solution.
thel and very interesting speaker design
Are the speakers entirely of your design? I'm interested particularly in the interior baffling / separation. As noted in the title for this thread, one of the things I've been trying to figure out is if it makes sense to go "totally separates" for each freq band/range (within reason, I'm looking at basically a 4-way with all the drivers in separate boxes) and how much if any benefit would result from this to go down this path.
I went to the thel site and while it looks like they have some interesting (Velleman type) stuff, all the language was intelligible, though it did make me think of tall pretty blondes on the side of a ski slope.
Anyways, if you could provide more info on your speaker design, I know I've be interested (not just from the active xover perspective, but because they look so interesting in and of themselves!).
Are the speakers entirely of your design? I'm interested particularly in the interior baffling / separation. As noted in the title for this thread, one of the things I've been trying to figure out is if it makes sense to go "totally separates" for each freq band/range (within reason, I'm looking at basically a 4-way with all the drivers in separate boxes) and how much if any benefit would result from this to go down this path.
I went to the thel site and while it looks like they have some interesting (Velleman type) stuff, all the language was intelligible, though it did make me think of tall pretty blondes on the side of a ski slope.
Anyways, if you could provide more info on your speaker design, I know I've be interested (not just from the active xover perspective, but because they look so interesting in and of themselves!).
fgroen said:I just stumbled across this topic, scanned it a bit and want to contribute.
I'm a big fan of active speakers. I use a THEL (www.thel.de) filter myself (German made, 24dB/oct optimized on perception). From that filter I drive a 6-channel Classé CAV-150, incorporating 6 150 Watts channels. The assertion the you better buy the best stereo-amp your money can buy doesn't apply. In the case of my system, I would probably need a more expensive CA-400 to equal the performance I have.
Due to the far more efficient use of amplifier power, a smaller 6-channel amp does just fine.
Some images:
My system (picture taken while trying to see what my new speakers will look like) Black box with blue LED is the filter, bottom box (red LED) the Classé CAV-150
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The filter. Thel supplies PCB units.
Just build the in a cabinet and voilà
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
My filter looks exactly like that internally. Dual mono power supply that is big enoug to drive a small power stage.
Thel also has high-end power amp modules in two sizes:
Small (good enough for a multi-channel power amp for active set-up)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Large
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Or you can mount all these modules on a plate and add some more modules like DC-protection and automatic switch-on on music signal and you can shove a whole 3-way active module in the back of your speaker:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Or build a multi-channel amp and set up the power supply according to your needs:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Of course you can also integrate the filters in the multi-amp casing so you eliminate a lot of interlinks....
I have the THEL filter now for couple of years, and the performance is phenomenal. Setting it up takes little time and afterwards setting the levels for left and right exactly identical makes that the stereo image gets holographic precision.
I consider the only way up for me is a DEQX. In the near future I will take the DEQX for a test-run....
A colleague DIY-er was so friendly to offer taking his unit over as soon as my speakers are finished.
fgroen's speakers and xover
While I am not questioning the Thel xover, I am looking for something with a a ton of flexibilitiy and hopefully ability to control via computer and also do auto-setup via external mic.
I decided to post another message re your post because after looking at the picture in more detail I couldn't believe my eyes when it appears you're building FOUR of these monster speakers? It certainly upped my interest in the speaker design!
While I am not questioning the Thel xover, I am looking for something with a a ton of flexibilitiy and hopefully ability to control via computer and also do auto-setup via external mic.
I decided to post another message re your post because after looking at the picture in more detail I couldn't believe my eyes when it appears you're building FOUR of these monster speakers? It certainly upped my interest in the speaker design!
Re: Re: BSS minidrive vs. omnidrive
Man, what a FANTASTIC store of information. Immediately made me reject the BSS 336 I was considering bidding on on Ebay. Made me realize which BSS or DBX versions I would most likely want to go with and which ones I don't want. Thouigh I did notice that almost all info re the DCX2496 (my starting point for programmable active xovers) is missing. Makes me wonder if he just doesn't consider it hi-end enough. If so, I'd like to know why, I still get a lot of neg and some very POS comments re the DCX.
Speaking of BSS, has anyone had any experience with this WHISEWORKS - NTM filter they keep touting as the next best thing since the DLP chp? They sure make it sound like it's the end all to beat all, but I'd like to hear from folks who've had hands-on experience.
Ken L said:
Man, what a FANTASTIC store of information. Immediately made me reject the BSS 336 I was considering bidding on on Ebay. Made me realize which BSS or DBX versions I would most likely want to go with and which ones I don't want. Thouigh I did notice that almost all info re the DCX2496 (my starting point for programmable active xovers) is missing. Makes me wonder if he just doesn't consider it hi-end enough. If so, I'd like to know why, I still get a lot of neg and some very POS comments re the DCX.
Speaking of BSS, has anyone had any experience with this WHISEWORKS - NTM filter they keep touting as the next best thing since the DLP chp? They sure make it sound like it's the end all to beat all, but I'd like to hear from folks who've had hands-on experience.
Re: Re: Re: BSS minidrive vs. omnidrive
Binkster is a Pro sound guy. IMHO, the professionals consider the Behringer stuff inexpensive clones and not for serious work. They essentially relegate them to the "garage band" category.
I didn't say what "I" think Behringer is, I said what I believe the pros generally think of Behringer for their applications
Please hold the flames. Instead hang around some of the Pro forums and ask their opinion.
I am responding to tlparkers question as to why he thinks Binkster didn't do a full workup on the Behringer
I consider the NTM filter to simply be 4 more DB of slope. It may mean more to the Pro Sound users, but for residential use I would look at it simply as 4DB.
I'm using it on mids and highs, crossing at 96hz and 960 hz.
Sounds slightly better than a 48DB slope, but like 4DB steeper.
Nothing earthshattering about it.
It _is_ a new concept, to the best of my knowledge nothing over 48 DB slopes exist elsewhere on similar units and it differentiates their units from other units. However, I would not use that as a determining factor or even close to being an issue in purchasing. I doubt very many people will use the extra 4db.
They are hyping it because it's a competitive market and you'll market your unit as best you can to boost sales. Don't forget, they are marketing to the Pro Sound market and not residential end users.
In my system, there is a difference to critical, seasoned listeners.
However, that difference is slight.
IMHO, I would only want to consider those units offering at least a 48DB slope unless there were budget constraints or a superb buying opportunity.
In other words, if you can find a great deal on a up to 48DB slope unit, jump on it and don't be concerned about 52DB.
Also, don't forget that one of the units that has one of the best reputations for sounding great and commands among the highest prices only does up to 24DB slopes _grin_
tlparker said:
Binkster is a Pro sound guy. IMHO, the professionals consider the Behringer stuff inexpensive clones and not for serious work. They essentially relegate them to the "garage band" category.
I didn't say what "I" think Behringer is, I said what I believe the pros generally think of Behringer for their applications
Please hold the flames. Instead hang around some of the Pro forums and ask their opinion.
I am responding to tlparkers question as to why he thinks Binkster didn't do a full workup on the Behringer
tlparker said:
I consider the NTM filter to simply be 4 more DB of slope. It may mean more to the Pro Sound users, but for residential use I would look at it simply as 4DB.
I'm using it on mids and highs, crossing at 96hz and 960 hz.
Sounds slightly better than a 48DB slope, but like 4DB steeper.
Nothing earthshattering about it.
It _is_ a new concept, to the best of my knowledge nothing over 48 DB slopes exist elsewhere on similar units and it differentiates their units from other units. However, I would not use that as a determining factor or even close to being an issue in purchasing. I doubt very many people will use the extra 4db.
They are hyping it because it's a competitive market and you'll market your unit as best you can to boost sales. Don't forget, they are marketing to the Pro Sound market and not residential end users.
In my system, there is a difference to critical, seasoned listeners.
However, that difference is slight.
IMHO, I would only want to consider those units offering at least a 48DB slope unless there were budget constraints or a superb buying opportunity.
In other words, if you can find a great deal on a up to 48DB slope unit, jump on it and don't be concerned about 52DB.
Also, don't forget that one of the units that has one of the best reputations for sounding great and commands among the highest prices only does up to 24DB slopes _grin_
Re: Re: Re: Re: BSS minidrive vs. omnidrive
Thanks for many clarifications and the obvious "obfuscation" at the end. Very interesting.
At tihs point I would ask: what is the difference between home hi-end and Pro Audio? Is it just a matter of cost? Spend more thus get better? Or, does it also take into considertation the punishment (having been in and around band(s) myself) that the equipment goes through?
I have no problems with the latter, but the former is what I'm struggling with. Do the "pro folks" dis the DCX because it cannot stand up to the rigors of pro use, or because it is mae of inferior grade parts and designed in such a way that it creates "less than pro" sound? Does it fail on both and/or other accounts and cause it to be relagated to "'consumer" status.
I am truly fascinated to get some input on this, being a DIY speaker/amp builder who long ago was in a band and also served as a roadie. Thanks,
PS- When I first saw the BSS slope capabilities I almost couldn't contain myself from immediately buying one (luckily their product management folks make product selection based on comparative feature/function so difficult that I just couldn't "close the deal" when my adrenaline was peaking). I am still looking though.
Thanks for many clarifications and the obvious "obfuscation" at the end. Very interesting.
At tihs point I would ask: what is the difference between home hi-end and Pro Audio? Is it just a matter of cost? Spend more thus get better? Or, does it also take into considertation the punishment (having been in and around band(s) myself) that the equipment goes through?
I have no problems with the latter, but the former is what I'm struggling with. Do the "pro folks" dis the DCX because it cannot stand up to the rigors of pro use, or because it is mae of inferior grade parts and designed in such a way that it creates "less than pro" sound? Does it fail on both and/or other accounts and cause it to be relagated to "'consumer" status.
I am truly fascinated to get some input on this, being a DIY speaker/amp builder who long ago was in a band and also served as a roadie. Thanks,
PS- When I first saw the BSS slope capabilities I almost couldn't contain myself from immediately buying one (luckily their product management folks make product selection based on comparative feature/function so difficult that I just couldn't "close the deal" when my adrenaline was peaking). I am still looking though.
Ken L said:
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BSS minidrive vs. omnidrive
that is an important issue to the pros. They will not consider equipment that they do not believe tp be durable and reliable.
Having said that, I think the Behringer product is excellent for the cost and there have been a number of posts/threads/yahoogroup details on upgrading them.
One main issue that I don't think there is a workaround for is, that the limited proccessing capability of the Behringer limits the use of the unit if you wish to use High crossover slopes. A 48DB slope takes 8 filters. You quickly run out if you want to do several EQ points - and a steep slope on the bottom, etc,
I have never run out on the BSS.
To my ears the Behringer sounds more "grainy" and SS like. (i'm a tube guy) It doesn't seem to improve when it warms up.
The BSS sounds smoother, more liquid, easier on the ears - particularly after it's warmed up several hours - although that could also be other equipment affecting the sound - not sure.
The Behringer is 48Kz chip and the BSS is 96khz.
The best deal on a new BSS unit could likely be found at
http://www.northernsound.net/
I bought mine used. Frankly, I'm not sure I would buy one at new prices - if I was spending that much I would go with the DEQX.
There is no need to spend that kind of money, though. I would haunt E-bay until I found a quality unit used, or buy used on the pro sound forum marketplace.
Current EV units should be excellent listening.
There is a good bit of info on used in some posts I made in the link I posted to an earlier thread.
tlparker said:
that is an important issue to the pros. They will not consider equipment that they do not believe tp be durable and reliable.
Having said that, I think the Behringer product is excellent for the cost and there have been a number of posts/threads/yahoogroup details on upgrading them.
One main issue that I don't think there is a workaround for is, that the limited proccessing capability of the Behringer limits the use of the unit if you wish to use High crossover slopes. A 48DB slope takes 8 filters. You quickly run out if you want to do several EQ points - and a steep slope on the bottom, etc,
I have never run out on the BSS.
To my ears the Behringer sounds more "grainy" and SS like. (i'm a tube guy) It doesn't seem to improve when it warms up.
The BSS sounds smoother, more liquid, easier on the ears - particularly after it's warmed up several hours - although that could also be other equipment affecting the sound - not sure.
The Behringer is 48Kz chip and the BSS is 96khz.
tlparker said:
The best deal on a new BSS unit could likely be found at
http://www.northernsound.net/
I bought mine used. Frankly, I'm not sure I would buy one at new prices - if I was spending that much I would go with the DEQX.
There is no need to spend that kind of money, though. I would haunt E-bay until I found a quality unit used, or buy used on the pro sound forum marketplace.
Current EV units should be excellent listening.
There is a good bit of info on used in some posts I made in the link I posted to an earlier thread.
gp4Jesus said:
prosoundweb.com has a number of pro sound forums
Everything from church to contracting to Live audio.
While DSPs are probably discussed in all of those, most of the discussion on DSPs are on the Live Audio Board.
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/f/2/0/
there are other pro sound forums but the above has been by far the best source of info for me.
Kinda clunky interface, particularly for searching - but I noticed some changes since I was last there, so maybe that is better also
Marketing and packaging, Meridian makes a speaker (and perhaps others) that only has a digital input jack. Internally the signal is processed and ends up driving a variable voltage/current into conventional drivers.
Maybe they use a digital amp and maybe not, but it is a digital speaker only in name.
I don't believe anyone has invented a "digital speaker" to date, i.e. a device that has 2^n sound producing elements that are turned either fully on or off.
Maybe they use a digital amp and maybe not, but it is a digital speaker only in name.
I don't believe anyone has invented a "digital speaker" to date, i.e. a device that has 2^n sound producing elements that are turned either fully on or off.
I may get my head handed to me for this, but not guts.. no glory!
I have first hand experience with DBX crossovers, and feel they are junk. I haven't used a Behringer X-over, but have heard them compared to DBX and read too many bad reports to buy one. DBX and Behringer are not top tier equipment.
I now use and absolutely love an Ashly XR2001 X-over. The features are rich, the slope control is excellent, and the tone is colorless.
I'm a computer jockey and pretty much a nut when it comes to hifi gear. However, I can't see the use of a 48db slope or connecting a computer to a x-over. If you want an x-over that supports bi/tri/quad amping and has unsurpassed quality I suggest you look into Ashly.
I have first hand experience with DBX crossovers, and feel they are junk. I haven't used a Behringer X-over, but have heard them compared to DBX and read too many bad reports to buy one. DBX and Behringer are not top tier equipment.
I now use and absolutely love an Ashly XR2001 X-over. The features are rich, the slope control is excellent, and the tone is colorless.
I'm a computer jockey and pretty much a nut when it comes to hifi gear. However, I can't see the use of a 48db slope or connecting a computer to a x-over. If you want an x-over that supports bi/tri/quad amping and has unsurpassed quality I suggest you look into Ashly.
HipoFutura said:
How about because it sounds better? In certain circumstances of course.
HipoFutura said:
Depending on the setup, pros are often running banks of crossovers linked together and use software to control it all.
Works slickly. Actually, even smaller setups will often use software. Quicker, easier and of course the ability to save an almost infinite variety of setups and configurations.
I, OTOH, haven't even bothered to load the software and just turn the knobs, dials, buttons, etc.
In an earlier post, reference was made to a PC being used as the crossover - I understand it works really well, although I've never done it.
I'm sure Ashly makes great stuff, as do some other companies
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.