The Well Tempered Master Clock - Building a low phase noise/jitter crystal oscillator

[andrea_mori]

Your last point it is very interesting .... I have in the back of my mind playing with a TDA1541A as well, I´ll add a 11.2896 myself just to have that for the near future.

should I added to the first or second batch ?

Thanks Andrea

The second batch if you look for an AT-CUT, else the other list for the more performant SC-CUT type.

 

[lindamar]

Added myself 1 X 11.2896


Interest List SC-cut Crystals from Laptech
- andrea_mori: 2 x 11.2896 MHz + 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 Mhz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Acko: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- QSerraTico_Tico: 2 x 11.2896 MHz
- iancanada: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- babaudio : 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz
- Clsidxxl: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- lindamar: 1 x 11.2896 MHz 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- tagheuer: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- palmito: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- damohpi: 1x 11.2896 Mhz (or 2x if reqd.)
- Naimster: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- noizas: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Phi: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz (Added title )
- stijn001: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- ambrosia168: 1 x 11.2896 Mhz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576
- flowerpot: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- jdlvfr: 2 x 11.2896 Mhz
- tods: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- wlowes: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- fralippo: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs


Second batch AT-cut Crystals from Laptech
- Miklos: 1 x 16.9344 MHz
- Marlowe: 3 x 16.9344Mhz + 3 x 25MHz
- carz 1x 27MHz
- 1audio : 1X6.1440MHz
- mravinsky : 2 x 16.9344Mhz + (2 x TWCMC-C XO board +1 x daughter board) if possible
- noizas : 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- randytsuch: 2x 25.0000 MHz
- casshan: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 12.288 MHz + 2 x PCB + 1 x daughter board
- ambrosia168: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz + 1 x 90.3168 MHz
- andrea_mori: 2 x 6.1440 MHz + 2 x 12.2880 MHz + 2 x 16.9344 MHz

 

[AR2]

Andrea, package arrived safely to California!
Great looking boards. Thank you!
AR2

 

[QSerraTico_Tico]

removed myself

Interest List SC-cut Crystals from Laptech
- andrea_mori: 2 x 11.2896 MHz + 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 Mhz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Acko: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- iancanada: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- babaudio : 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz
- Clsidxxl: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- lindamar: 1 x 11.2896 MHz 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- tagheuer: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- palmito: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- damohpi: 1x 11.2896 Mhz (or 2x if reqd.)
- Naimster: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- noizas: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Phi: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz (Added title )
- stijn001: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- ambrosia168: 1 x 11.2896 Mhz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576
- flowerpot: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- jdlvfr: 2 x 11.2896 Mhz
- tods: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- wlowes: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- fralippo: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs


Second batch AT-cut Crystals from Laptech
- Miklos: 1 x 16.9344 MHz
- Marlowe: 3 x 16.9344Mhz + 3 x 25MHz
- carz 1x 27MHz
- 1audio : 1X6.1440MHz
- mravinsky : 2 x 16.9344Mhz + (2 x TWCMC-C XO board +1 x daughter board) if possible
- noizas : 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- randytsuch: 2x 25.0000 MHz
- casshan: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 12.288 MHz + 2 x PCB + 1 x daughter board
- ambrosia168: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz + 1 x 90.3168 MHz
- andrea_mori: 2 x 6.1440 MHz + 2 x 12.2880 MHz + 2 x 16.9344 MHz

 

[gerhard]

Is there any interest in 10MHz crystals? I'd like to build a low phase noise time reference option board for my HP 33120A... The stock option 001 is super stable (spec says, I think 4ppm/yr drift) but its phase noise is less impressive. I'd love a replacement that might not have the same ultimate stability but better phase noise behavior at 10Hz. (I know, getting out of the audio field here... but it's for audio design/testing, hence my interest in low phase noise.)

Methinks the timenuts list on febo.com would be an interesting place for you, but
IMO your chance of getting any superior phase noise from the 10 MHz ref to the
output of the function generator is less than dim.

Get a ready 10811A or sth. like that, you cannot do better unless you invest a
substantial part of your life.

regards, Gerhard

(always interested in excellent 10, 99, 100 MHz crystals!)

 

[korben69]

Hi All

I'm waiting for Andrea's parcel delivery, it's on his way, still in Italy. (checked today)

However, I've compared subcribers Forms and Andreas list.
Some members forms are missing :
- thorstenlarsen - zenelectro - JethroTull - triodehunter - Lindamar

So please fill the Form here :
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1odqObA4PFXhxqxyqrZiAPSWgGCTsZBO19erk2LmXXHk/viewform?usp=send_form

Myint67 order is not concerned as Andrea hasn't shipped his order.
So, I'll delete his record in Assembly Service file.

Let me know if you are in trouble

Regards,
Phil

 

[Eldam]

Phil,

Haven't mine as well.

 

[bson]

Andrea, package arrived safely to California!
Great looking boards. Thank you!

Got mine too the other day! Yay!

Just placed a BOM order with Mouser to populate one each of 5.6448M and 11.2896M at 5V TTL...

 

[bson]

IMO your chance of getting any superior phase noise from the 10 MHz ref to the
output of the function generator is less than dim.

Get a ready 10811A or sth. like that, you cannot do better unless you invest a
substantial part of your life.

Yeah, an OCXO like the 10811A or the Trimble OCXO from a late Thunderbolt is always an option. The HP is kind of bulky though...

 

[Eldam]

For the italian Post, USA is nearer to Italia than France while France is seen to be near Arctic Pole !

One day in Roma, a Postcard took 3 weeks to arrive in France... One italian said to me "just use the Vatican Post"...

IanCanada sent me a board and it took one week !

UE have some little problem to unify its organisation ! They don't work in the UE comissions boards they catch incomes and listen to lobbies only !

 

[Fabian85]

Interest List SC-cut Crystals from Laptech
- andrea_mori: 2 x 11.2896 MHz + 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 Mhz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Acko: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- iancanada: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- babaudio : 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz
- Clsidxxl: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- lindamar: 1 x 11.2896 MHz 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- tagheuer: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- palmito: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- damohpi: 1x 11.2896 Mhz (or 2x if reqd.)
- Naimster: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- noizas: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Phi: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz (Added title )
- stijn001: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- ambrosia168: 1 x 11.2896 Mhz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576
- flowerpot: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- jdlvfr: 2 x 11.2896 Mhz
- tods: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- wlowes: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- fralippo: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs


Second batch AT-cut Crystals from Laptech
- Miklos: 1 x 16.9344 MHz
- Marlowe: 3 x 16.9344Mhz + 3 x 25MHz
- carz 1x 27MHz
- 1audio : 1X6.1440MHz
- mravinsky : 2 x 16.9344Mhz + (2 x TWCMC-C XO board +1 x daughter board) if possible
- noizas : 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- randytsuch: 2x 25.0000 MHz
- casshan: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 12.288 MHz + 2 x PCB + 1 x daughter board
- ambrosia168: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz + 1 x 90.3168 MHz
- andrea_mori: 2 x 6.1440 MHz + 2 x 12.2880 MHz + 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- Fabian85: 1x 16.9344 MHz, 2x PCB + 1x daughter board

Added myself

 

[justubes]

Demian,
thanks for the link.
Firstly I thought to use epoxy resin to coat the copper tube and the crystal. But in this way the crystal is completely closed and so I have difficult to measure the temp to tuning the heater circuit.
I will leave all open, maybe I could use some thermal paste between the crystal and the tube walls. Operating temperature will be around 80°.
As you, I think some temp drift is not an issue for digital audio application.

Hi Andre,

Instead of a heater, Is it possible to use a 11.2896mhz rubidium module off ebay and powered seperately for a little more money. Would it connect it in place of the sc cut crystal (ocxo)in the circuit?

the ocxo would output 3.3v sine wave, so if the rubidium module could output similar, it will work?

I am still trying to grasp how the sc cut crystal will connect eventually in place of a vcxo or the at cut crystal.

Thanks

 

[1audio]

The eBay rubidium is way more complex and will not simply connect in plae of the crystal. Rubidiums usually have better loner term stability than crystals but higher phase noise in the close in range. The rubidium you are mentioning is actually running at a much different frequency and using a DDS to generate the 11.xxx output. DDS's can have major spurs which will swamp any phase noise issues. You can reduce them but its a lot of work for not that much return.

Your best option will be the SC cut crystal in an optimum oscillator. The oven may help but we won't know until someone measures it with and without.

Here is a really good discussion on SC crystals http://www.digikey.com/Web Export/S...onnorWinfield_ChoosingATorSC.pdf?redirected=1

Judging from the plot the frequency shift from 20C to 40C might be within the AES spec and while they do not pull very far a TXCO option could work well enough for audio.

Qven controllers can introduce noise which might undo all the good work.

 

[andrea_mori]

@Demian,
good analysis, as usual.

@justubes,
as Demian said, rubidium clock typically doesn't excel in phase noise close to the carrier, while it has good long term stability. In audio we care about short term stability rather than long term.

Finally I got the copper tube, so I have to try to adapt it to the shape of the crystal using a vise and a guide.
Then I will order some heater PCB to give a try.

In the meantime, who was interested to get SC-cut crystals, please add to the list.
I'm away (with limited internet access) for vacation from April 30th to May 18th, so I would place the order of SC-cut crystals before I leave.

 

[duster1]

Interest List SC-cut Crystals from Laptech
- andrea_mori: 2 x 11.2896 MHz + 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 Mhz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Acko: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- iancanada: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- babaudio : 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz
- Clsidxxl: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- lindamar: 1 x 11.2896 MHz 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- tagheuer: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- palmito: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- damohpi: 1x 11.2896 Mhz (or 2x if reqd.)
- Naimster: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- noizas: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Phi: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz (Added title )
- stijn001: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- ambrosia168: 1 x 11.2896 Mhz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576
- flowerpot: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- jdlvfr: 2 x 11.2896 Mhz
- tods: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- wlowes: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- fralippo: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs
- duster1: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs


Second batch AT-cut Crystals from Laptech
- Miklos: 1 x 16.9344 MHz
- Marlowe: 3 x 16.9344Mhz + 3 x 25MHz
- carz 1x 27MHz
- 1audio : 1X6.1440MHz
- mravinsky : 2 x 16.9344Mhz + (2 x TWCMC-C XO board +1 x daughter board) if possible
- noizas : 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- randytsuch: 2x 25.0000 MHz
- casshan: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 12.288 MHz + 2 x PCB + 1 x daughter board
- ambrosia168: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz + 1 x 90.3168 MHz
- andrea_mori: 2 x 6.1440 MHz + 2 x 12.2880 MHz + 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- Fabian85: 1x 16.9344 MHz, 2x PCB + 1x daughter board
- duster1: 2 x 16.9344 MHz, 2 x PCB + 2 x daughter board

 

[stijn001]

.. so I would place the order of SC-cut crystals before I leave.

That would be great. Have a good vacation!

 

[lindamar]

Hi All

I'm waiting for Andrea's parcel delivery, it's on his way, still in Italy. (checked today)

However, I've compared subcribers Forms and Andreas list.
Some members forms are missing :
- thorstenlarsen - zenelectro - JethroTull - triodehunter - Lindamar

So please fill the Form here :
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1odqObA4PFXhxqxyqrZiAPSWgGCTsZBO19erk2LmXXHk/viewform?usp=send_form

Myint67 order is not concerned as Andrea hasn't shipped his order.
So, I'll delete his record in Assembly Service file.

Let me know if you are in trouble

Regards,
Phil

Phil,

form submitted. Do please check your email with specific information about the assembly of my boards.

Thank you !. I look forward to your quote
Pepe

 

[Zoran]

Hi Andrea, today I receved my order
Thanks

 

[flowerpot]

Interest List SC-cut Crystals from Laptech
- andrea_mori: 2 x 11.2896 MHz + 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 Mhz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Acko: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- iancanada: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- babaudio : 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz
- Clsidxxl: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- lindamar: 1 x 11.2896 MHz 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- tagheuer: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- palmito: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- damohpi: 1x 11.2896 Mhz (or 2x if reqd.)
- Naimster: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- noizas: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Phi: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz (Added title )
- stijn001: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- ambrosia168: 1 x 11.2896 Mhz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576
- flowerpot: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + 2 x PCB + 1 x daughter board + 2 x DIL
- jdlvfr: 2 x 11.2896 Mhz
- tods: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- wlowes: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- fralippo: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs
- duster1: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs


Second batch AT-cut Crystals from Laptech
- Miklos: 1 x 16.9344 MHz
- Marlowe: 3 x 16.9344Mhz + 3 x 25MHz
- carz 1x 27MHz
- 1audio : 1X6.1440MHz
- mravinsky : 2 x 16.9344Mhz + (2 x TWCMC-C XO board +1 x daughter board) if possible
- noizas : 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- randytsuch: 2x 25.0000 MHz
- casshan: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 12.288 MHz + 2 x PCB + 1 x daughter board
- ambrosia168: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz + 1 x 90.3168 MHz
- andrea_mori: 2 x 6.1440 MHz + 2 x 12.2880 MHz + 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- Fabian85: 1x 16.9344 MHz, 2x PCB + 1x daughter board
- duster1: 2 x 16.9344 MHz, 2 x PCB + 2 x daughter board

 

[RollE2k]

Interest List SC-cut Crystals from Laptech
- andrea_mori: 2 x 11.2896 MHz + 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 Mhz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Acko: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- iancanada: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- babaudio : 2 x 22.5792 MHz + 2 x 24.576 MHz
- Clsidxxl: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- lindamar: 1 x 11.2896 MHz 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- tagheuer: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- palmito: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- damohpi: 1x 11.2896 Mhz (or 2x if reqd.)
- Naimster: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz
- noizas: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz
- Phi: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz (Added title )
- stijn001: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- ambrosia168: 1 x 11.2896 Mhz + 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576
- flowerpot: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + 2 x PCB + 1 x daughter board + 2 x DIL
- jdlvfr: 2 x 11.2896 Mhz
- tods: 1 x 22.5792 MHz + 1 x 24.576 MHz + 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- wlowes: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz
- fralippo: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs
- duster1: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + PCBs


Second batch AT-cut Crystals from Laptech
- Miklos: 1 x 16.9344 MHz
- Marlowe: 3 x 16.9344Mhz + 3 x 25MHz
- carz 1x 27MHz
- 1audio : 1X6.1440MHz
- mravinsky : 2 x 16.9344Mhz + (2 x TWCMC-C XO board +1 x daughter board) if possible
- noizas : 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- randytsuch: 2x 25.0000 MHz
- casshan: 1 x 11.2896 MHz + 1 x 12.288 MHz + 2 x PCB + 1 x daughter board
- ambrosia168: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152 MHz + 1 x 90.3168 MHz
- andrea_mori: 2 x 6.1440 MHz + 2 x 12.2880 MHz + 2 x 16.9344 MHz
- Fabian85: 1x 16.9344 MHz, 2x PCB + 1x daughter board
- duster1: 2 x 16.9344 MHz, 2 x PCB + 2 x daughter board
- RollE2k: 1 x 45.1584 MHz + 1 x 49.152MHz + 2x PCB + 2x daughter board