All the electrolytics you mean the 100uF ones too?
Damn... I hope I can find some decent ones tomorrow...
By the way, is there a reason we do not use 35v electrolytics or 50v ones? Their size and price seem the same more or less. Are they working better near their nominal voltage max?
About the transformer you were right, I was stupid enough to mount it to the chasis running screws through the holes on its core...
I re-did everything using an epoxy vero board and it seems to have improved a lot.
There is still a small hum when I get my ear near the case, but I guess that s normal right?
Damn... I hope I can find some decent ones tomorrow...
By the way, is there a reason we do not use 35v electrolytics or 50v ones? Their size and price seem the same more or less. Are they working better near their nominal voltage max?
About the transformer you were right, I was stupid enough to mount it to the chasis running screws through the holes on its core...
I re-did everything using an epoxy vero board and it seems to have improved a lot.
There is still a small hum when I get my ear near the case, but I guess that s normal right?
hey Richard and all ,
i built my phonoclone 3 a few weeks ago and have been listening to it when time allows .
i built it using the bom only with the wima fkp for c1 and c2 and the wima mkp for c3 .
when i first turned it on i was amazed . it was a delicate pat metheny guitar piece . next to something with more band range and found the bass boomy and vocals muddy . sooo i ordered some jantzen crosscaps Jantzen 2.2uF 400V Crosscap Capacitor 027-916 and they improved the sound immensely
however , i'm thinking there's more to be had here .
i've read pretty much both threads and i've seen pretty much no one playing with different output caps .
i've ordered a pair of mundorf supreme caps and also some micas for c1&2 to play with and will report back results .
btw i'm not complaining . i love tweaking and wanted anyone with one to know major differences/improvements can be made just by swapping c3's .
cheers , Woody
ps Richard are the new boards available ?
i built my phonoclone 3 a few weeks ago and have been listening to it when time allows .
i built it using the bom only with the wima fkp for c1 and c2 and the wima mkp for c3 .
when i first turned it on i was amazed . it was a delicate pat metheny guitar piece . next to something with more band range and found the bass boomy and vocals muddy . sooo i ordered some jantzen crosscaps Jantzen 2.2uF 400V Crosscap Capacitor 027-916 and they improved the sound immensely
however , i'm thinking there's more to be had here . i've read pretty much both threads and i've seen pretty much no one playing with different output caps .
i've ordered a pair of mundorf supreme caps and also some micas for c1&2 to play with and will report back results .
btw i'm not complaining . i love tweaking
and wanted anyone with one to know major differences/improvements can be made just by swapping c3's . cheers , Woody
ps Richard are the new boards available ?
@dimkasta
Yes. Some are probably still ok, but as there is no simple way to tell so it is best to replace all. A small toroidal transformer <200 VA should not have any audible mechanical hum. It's possible that it, too, is damaged.
@Woody
I've been told a few times now that such&such a cap for C3 makes a large difference, and I expect it is so. The WIMA MKP or the polypro that ships with the kit must be considered "midrange" but, well, how much you want to pay for a coupling cap is something I feel must be left to the end user to decide. It's not something I want to insist upon. Besides it's an easy and fun place to tweak if you are inclined.
For the record I use Black Gate NX in my original, 1st batch Phonoclone3 that is several years old now. I would probably use Multicaps now.
PS: 35f boards are in stock, yes.
Yes. Some are probably still ok, but as there is no simple way to tell so it is best to replace all. A small toroidal transformer <200 VA should not have any audible mechanical hum. It's possible that it, too, is damaged.
@Woody
I've been told a few times now that such&such a cap for C3 makes a large difference, and I expect it is so. The WIMA MKP or the polypro that ships with the kit must be considered "midrange" but, well, how much you want to pay for a coupling cap is something I feel must be left to the end user to decide. It's not something I want to insist upon. Besides it's an easy and fun place to tweak if you are inclined.
For the record I use Black Gate NX in my original, 1st batch Phonoclone3 that is several years old now. I would probably use Multicaps now.
PS: 35f boards are in stock, yes.
The kit instructions call pretty clearly for a 35 VA 2x12VAC toroid. Your 12 VA, 2x10VAC split bobbin is barely sufficient to power the phonoclone - it wouldn't surprise me if it buzzes a little since you are stressing it considerably.
To everyone else : don't use these! You are investing $200+ with the case, parts and everything, and who knows how many hours of your time, a 35VA Talema or Triad costs less than $35, will sound great and run completely silent, vs. perhaps $6 for something like this Hammond which will sound like crap and most likely emit an audible "bzzzzzzzz" to the end of its days. If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times : don't skimp on the power transformer.
To everyone else : don't use these! You are investing $200+ with the case, parts and everything, and who knows how many hours of your time, a 35VA Talema or Triad costs less than $35, will sound great and run completely silent, vs. perhaps $6 for something like this Hammond which will sound like crap and most likely emit an audible "bzzzzzzzz" to the end of its days. If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times : don't skimp on the power transformer.
Well there is no "noise" now that it is properly mounted on a pcb. The problem was when I had it mounted from its core. Now there is only a minor hum which is only detectable if you put your ear 1-2cm above the aluminum case.
Peter Daniel uses those in his own phono, and he verifies that they generally do vibrate a bit.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/audio-sector/151938-phono-stage-38.html#post2935957
I also hooked up a second one, and another one which gives 2x15V AC and they all do the same thing.
When they are loose on the bench they are completely silent. Once you put them inside an aluminum box, the vibration becomes a bit amplified by the metal and is almost audible (if you put your ear 1-2cm above the case) as a minor hum.
Anyway, I will replace the one I abused with the second one just in case. No need to play with these things... I will keep this setup as a quick test psu until I get the 120VA toroid I ordered
On the vsps, I replaced all the capacitors with others I got from the local shop. They are branded Lelon RGA 105. I guess they will be ok until I get the replacement Nichicons. I also ordered some vishay bridges to compare with the MUR860s and a few boutique caps to check on C3 (mundorf, solen, auricaps and a couple more)
Peter Daniel uses those in his own phono, and he verifies that they generally do vibrate a bit.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/audio-sector/151938-phono-stage-38.html#post2935957
I also hooked up a second one, and another one which gives 2x15V AC and they all do the same thing.
When they are loose on the bench they are completely silent. Once you put them inside an aluminum box, the vibration becomes a bit amplified by the metal and is almost audible (if you put your ear 1-2cm above the case) as a minor hum.
Anyway, I will replace the one I abused with the second one just in case. No need to play with these things... I will keep this setup as a quick test psu until I get the 120VA toroid I ordered
On the vsps, I replaced all the capacitors with others I got from the local shop. They are branded Lelon RGA 105. I guess they will be ok until I get the replacement Nichicons. I also ordered some vishay bridges to compare with the MUR860s and a few boutique caps to check on C3 (mundorf, solen, auricaps and a couple more)
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so dimkasta , did replacing the caps get it working ?
i'll be interested in hearing your impressions of the different caps . while i'm not a believer in throwing money at exotic caps expecting miracles , we're not talking big bucks here . i do know the improvement i heard and the jantzens i swapped in were only $3 each and the mundorf's i ordered $23 .
best of luck in getting yours working , Woody
i'll be interested in hearing your impressions of the different caps . while i'm not a believer in throwing money at exotic caps expecting miracles , we're not talking big bucks here . i do know the improvement i heard and the jantzens i swapped in were only $3 each
and the mundorf's i ordered $23 . best of luck in getting yours working , Woody
Thanks man. I did not try it today. I had to go out. I just soldered them and cleaned the pcb.
I will post my impressions on the caps, but I do not expect to have enough input really soon.
Expecting miracles from capacitors is always a bit of a trap, but in any case using proven caps (even exotic ones) should offer at least some improvement, taking of course into account the diminishing returns thingy.
VCaps is absolutely out of my league in that matter
By the way what I really want to try is Air Caps for the RIAA. I have read some really good stuff about using them. Plus, they allow really precise RIAA adjustment with the proper measuring tool.The only issue is that 1nF and 3nF are a bit too much for air caps which means many of them would have to be used in series, which creates a number of new issues
I will post my impressions on the caps, but I do not expect to have enough input really soon.
Expecting miracles from capacitors is always a bit of a trap, but in any case using proven caps (even exotic ones) should offer at least some improvement, taking of course into account the diminishing returns thingy.
VCaps is absolutely out of my league in that matter
By the way what I really want to try is Air Caps for the RIAA. I have read some really good stuff about using them. Plus, they allow really precise RIAA adjustment with the proper measuring tool.The only issue is that 1nF and 3nF are a bit too much for air caps which means many of them would have to be used in series, which creates a number of new issues
OK all voltage measurements were perfect so I did a few first tests listening to the little bugger.
My setup is:
Clearaudio Virtuoso wood
ARC LS-25 pre
Electrocompaniet AW 120 DMB
Magneplannar 1.7 speakers
The phono I replaced is an ARC PH3
I listened to a few of my favorite records which include
Private Investigations from Dire Straits
Pink Panther from Mancini
Arizona Dream from Iggy Pop & Bregovic
Rhapsodies from Stokovski (Hungarian and Romanian)
Here at Last (from Cisco)
What I did not like (probably some will get better with a bit of breaking in)
In the fast and dynamic parts, like in the intro of Telegraph Road, it did not seem to be able to keep up with the fast/hard drum and guitar outbreaks. Same in the outbreaks in Private Investigations.
It also seemed to make instruments like pianos smaller and thinner. There was also much less detail on the entire spectrum.
What I liked:
The stereo image and the overall balance of the frequencies. I particularly loved how it brings forward guitars and violins giving them the attention they need. Although it was a bit of a tradeoff between that and having smaller sound in general.
What I need to fix:
I need to redesign my case mounting. I like the fact that I get a nice clean case (no screws) when mounting everything on the lid/cover and putting it on the bottom, but it gets a bit weird opening it and working on it.
I am also getting some radio reception when turning up the volume to ~3 o' clock.
Need also to use some better cable for the umblical and the power cable like olflex 110 cy to better isolate DCs and ACs.
How much time should I allow it to break in before I start making any conclusions and start swapping around things?
Next on the upgrade test list is full dual mono with 2 120VA toroids and vishay bridges.
Thanks for a nice circuit and kit Richard
My setup is:
Clearaudio Virtuoso wood
ARC LS-25 pre
Electrocompaniet AW 120 DMB
Magneplannar 1.7 speakers
The phono I replaced is an ARC PH3
I listened to a few of my favorite records which include
Private Investigations from Dire Straits
Pink Panther from Mancini
Arizona Dream from Iggy Pop & Bregovic
Rhapsodies from Stokovski (Hungarian and Romanian)
Here at Last (from Cisco)
What I did not like (probably some will get better with a bit of breaking in)
In the fast and dynamic parts, like in the intro of Telegraph Road, it did not seem to be able to keep up with the fast/hard drum and guitar outbreaks. Same in the outbreaks in Private Investigations.
It also seemed to make instruments like pianos smaller and thinner. There was also much less detail on the entire spectrum.
What I liked:
The stereo image and the overall balance of the frequencies. I particularly loved how it brings forward guitars and violins giving them the attention they need. Although it was a bit of a tradeoff between that and having smaller sound in general.
What I need to fix:
I need to redesign my case mounting. I like the fact that I get a nice clean case (no screws) when mounting everything on the lid/cover and putting it on the bottom, but it gets a bit weird opening it and working on it.
I am also getting some radio reception when turning up the volume to ~3 o' clock.
Need also to use some better cable for the umblical and the power cable like olflex 110 cy to better isolate DCs and ACs.
How much time should I allow it to break in before I start making any conclusions and start swapping around things?
Next on the upgrade test list is full dual mono with 2 120VA toroids and vishay bridges.
Thanks for a nice circuit and kit Richard
Let it burn in. The first few hours were thin and not too good, but after that Wow. Certainly no lack off bass or dynamics.
If you are getting RF interference at that level you probably have something else wrong. Keep the leads from the phono socket to the board short etc. Make sure all the 0v leads are exactly as in Richards diagrams. Check your soldering for dry joints.
Full volume with either the OPA27's or AD797's as the second stage and I get only minimal noise and no RF breakthrough.
Did you make any changes to the stock circuit? If so try going back to the original parts as well.
Good luck!
If you are getting RF interference at that level you probably have something else wrong. Keep the leads from the phono socket to the board short etc. Make sure all the 0v leads are exactly as in Richards diagrams. Check your soldering for dry joints.
Full volume with either the OPA27's or AD797's as the second stage and I get only minimal noise and no RF breakthrough.
Did you make any changes to the stock circuit? If so try going back to the original parts as well.
Good luck!
I'd leave it powered up for 2 days before attempting any sort of critical evaluation, and it seems to keep improving well after that, too. In my experience any DIY circuit I've built using factory-fresh electrolytics behaves like this.
The ARC PH3 is a fine-sounding phono stage. Stiff competition. Even with the Phonoclone at 100% I would expect a shoot-out to be indecisive at best.
Regarding RFI, some people do have problems. Using well-shielded phono cables, cases and interconnects is an absolute must. The power umbilical can be unshielded though in severe environments it too may benefit from shielding.
The ARC PH3 is a fine-sounding phono stage. Stiff competition. Even with the Phonoclone at 100% I would expect a shoot-out to be indecisive at best.
Regarding RFI, some people do have problems. Using well-shielded phono cables, cases and interconnects is an absolute must. The power umbilical can be unshielded though in severe environments it too may benefit from shielding.
BIG OOPS!!
Just completed the first board, powered it up and the voltages are incorrect.
gnd - IC1 pin 4 = -1V
gnd - IC1 pin 7 = +11v
gnd - v- = -1v
gnd - v+ = 11v
The neg regulator is obviously off somewhere, I assume I have fried a transistor or blown an IC, but haven't really got a clue.
Wheres the best place to start trouble shooting? I haven't powered the other board yet.
Just completed the first board, powered it up and the voltages are incorrect.
gnd - IC1 pin 4 = -1V
gnd - IC1 pin 7 = +11v
gnd - v- = -1v
gnd - v+ = 11v
The neg regulator is obviously off somewhere, I assume I have fried a transistor or blown an IC, but haven't really got a clue.
Wheres the best place to start trouble shooting? I haven't powered the other board yet.
Missing trace section in Phonoclone 3 rev 35f boards.
The Rev. 35f Phonoclone3 boards have a 0.1" missing section of trace. Just spotted it now. Crap.
Fortunately there's a real simple fix, just a matter of wiring a bridge to the two closest pads. Will show in detail in my next post.
The Rev. 35f Phonoclone3 boards have a 0.1" missing section of trace. Just spotted it now. Crap.
Fortunately there's a real simple fix, just a matter of wiring a bridge to the two closest pads. Will show in detail in my next post.
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