Yep, that's what vinyl is all about, that golden moment when it actually starts sounding as good as a compact disc!
Laugh if you like, but on reflection its harder to get LPs to sound hands-down no-contest better than a good, modern digital player than most of us enthusiasts would care to admit. Since its by definition way more tweakable, its easy enough to make vinyl sound noticeably different, and fairly easy to fatten it up with a few tubes and increase the warm fuzzy feeling - at the expense of resolution and noise. But I'd say its hard to win it outright. And there's a lot more little things to get right before it even comes close to doing so.
In that spirit and with your encouragement and help, I continue to hammer away at the phonoclone circuit.
I've done a PCB transplant and replaced the old boards with the new B.E. model. Besides the layout and the switch to adjustable regulators (National LM317T, 337T at +-10V), the electrolytic caps are Nichicon Muse, 2x 47uF for bypass, 2x 330uF for filter per rail per board. They were cheap, available and they fit nicely. RIAA are 1nF polystyene, in solidarity with the kit builders. The Black Gates were previously burnt in, and the op-amps recycled, so break in shouldn't be too much of an issue.
It will be interesting to hear from the people building this batch, especially those who previously built phonoclones with the old boards and 7x12s. I find the improvement to be far from subtle. At first it feels like the treble is dramatically shelved back, but on further - albeit still early - listening it seems to me more that a layer of glare that fell over all the high frequencies has been removed.
With the volume turned to max, the noise level is about the same, a little more electrical hum but the static hiss is softer.
/R
Hi, some more listening...
You can easily tweak the phonoclone to a huge degree to more resolution (and both softer and fresher trebles) by simply drop in an AD811 in the first stage.
I haven't checked yet if you can further better its performance by changing its feedback res (it seems to have a few db less)
Please, check for input offset, *before* you connect your cartridge
Yes, I know, the design should be -best-buy-for-the-money, but I have some AD811 around and couldn't resist.
Rüdiger
You can easily tweak the phonoclone to a huge degree to more resolution (and both softer and fresher trebles) by simply drop in an AD811 in the first stage.
I haven't checked yet if you can further better its performance by changing its feedback res (it seems to have a few db less)
Please, check for input offset, *before* you connect your cartridge
Yes, I know, the design should be -best-buy-for-the-money, but I have some AD811 around and couldn't resist.
Rüdiger
Re: R core trannies
this is an excellent question. i read and hear good things about those rcore trannys and wouldn't mind trying one myself in my preamp projects.
mlloyd1
this is an excellent question. i read and hear good things about those rcore trannys and wouldn't mind trying one myself in my preamp projects.
mlloyd1
Fishy said:Hello ...
Had no luck searching for R-core transformers on the web (except a few China sites!). Can anyone please point me to some online store (US or Canada) where I can order r-core transformers? Thanks!
...
Super Reg!!!
Hi,
All of you that have the opportunity to run the phonoclone with super-regulators, *please* try (and don't use the onboard-regulators!).
To my ears, phonoclone and superreg are quite a match,
it plays in another league!
Time to get the dirty work into a nice shape...
Rüdiger
Edit: please note that i ran my phonoclone from batteries previously, and i didn't try the multiple regulator version like on the pcb's.
Hi,
All of you that have the opportunity to run the phonoclone with super-regulators, *please* try (and don't use the onboard-regulators!).
To my ears, phonoclone and superreg are quite a match,
it plays in another league!
Time to get the dirty work into a nice shape...
Rüdiger
Edit: please note that i ran my phonoclone from batteries previously, and i didn't try the multiple regulator version like on the pcb's.
![p1010013[1]b.jpg](/community/data/attachments/46/46740-09375a86d46d1bc0461cd60ddc54c281.jpg)
Measurements on the Phonoclone BE
I have a couple of graphs to share.
First the frequency response.
I became aware that the sound was pulling to the left, and in particular the right channel seemed dead in the treble. The measurements confirm a consistent 1/4 dB channel offset, opening up to 1/2 dB in the treble.
This corresponds, according to my simulation, to a deviation of about +5% in R2, C1 and C2 in the right channel. (I think I cooked R2 a little on soldering..)
I'm regretting not matching the components. I was in a rush and also my DMM can't really measure down to 1nF with any accuracy.
So please do your level best to match parts between channels to better than 3%.
/R
The figure below should serve as an example of unacceptable result in terms of channel imbalance.
I have a couple of graphs to share.
First the frequency response.
I became aware that the sound was pulling to the left, and in particular the right channel seemed dead in the treble. The measurements confirm a consistent 1/4 dB channel offset, opening up to 1/2 dB in the treble.
This corresponds, according to my simulation, to a deviation of about +5% in R2, C1 and C2 in the right channel. (I think I cooked R2 a little on soldering..)
I'm regretting not matching the components. I was in a rush and also my DMM can't really measure down to 1nF with any accuracy.
So please do your level best to match parts between channels to better than 3%.
/R
The figure below should serve as an example of unacceptable result in terms of channel imbalance.
Attachments
The noise spectrum confirms my listening impression: the noise baseline is defined by the OP27 voltage noise, as before, with some additional line noise spikes.
The intensities and overall distribution are very similar to what I saw with the 7812 (at 200uF effective capacitance, compared to 660uF here). In direct comparison, the LM317 shows no peak at 120 Hz but does have some 60 Hz noise. (perhaps external pick up)
To be honest I was expecting better.
It seems that the improvement of the LM317 over the 7812 is in the area of load regulation rather than ripple rejection.
To reduce the line noise below the baseline noise, one would have to increase the filter capacitance by about a factor of 3.
/R
The intensities and overall distribution are very similar to what I saw with the 7812 (at 200uF effective capacitance, compared to 660uF here). In direct comparison, the LM317 shows no peak at 120 Hz but does have some 60 Hz noise. (perhaps external pick up)
To be honest I was expecting better.
It seems that the improvement of the LM317 over the 7812 is in the area of load regulation rather than ripple rejection.
To reduce the line noise below the baseline noise, one would have to increase the filter capacitance by about a factor of 3.
/R
Attachments
Input offset
Hi Richard and others,
some weird observations: I have made two different p2p layouts of the clone. My first one shows 0.0mV input offset (output around 4-5mV), a second layout, which is adopted from Richards latest pcb, shows 0.6mV (output 25mV) *with the same opamps* (swapped from one board to the other)!
I'm almost sure I did not make any mistake (well, you know how it goes ), but I will check again...
I had an issue sometimes (not rfi, but a slow oscillation around 1,5 seconds) with a long cartridge cable, that's why I tried another layout.
So, how does your clone perform in respect to input-offset? What can be wrong?
thanks,
Rüdiger
Hi Richard and others,
some weird observations: I have made two different p2p layouts of the clone. My first one shows 0.0mV input offset (output around 4-5mV), a second layout, which is adopted from Richards latest pcb, shows 0.6mV (output 25mV) *with the same opamps* (swapped from one board to the other)!
I'm almost sure I did not make any mistake (well, you know how it goes
), but I will check again...I had an issue sometimes (not rfi, but a slow oscillation around 1,5 seconds) with a long cartridge cable, that's why I tried another layout.
So, how does your clone perform in respect to input-offset? What can be wrong?
thanks,
Rüdiger
Onvinyl,
While the OP27G/OPA27GP has an input datasheet input offset voltage of 0.03 mV typ / 0.1 mV max, the AD811 is considerably higher, 0.5 mV typ / 3 mV max.
So even with the new board, your measured value is well within specification for the op-amp you are using.
.....
In order to match my Phonoclone's frequency response I replaced the polystyrene caps with the mica ones I used in the old board. Although I did hear a voice in favour of the polystyrene over the mica a little while back, I'd like to cast my vote for the mica.
The polystyrene caps have a slight suck-out in the upper midrange, and are generally on the soft side in both bass extention and transient response. The silver-mica caps are the complete opposite, being slightly forward in the midrange, with well defined bass and transients, more transparent, but they sound a tad overwound to my ears. The opposite of relaxing if you will.
Im fairly confident this is beyond the small differences in frequency reponse due to the actual values used. I heard more-or-less the same in different builds earlier on. The polystyrene caps might improve with use though: I never did do a long term evaluation.
Neither is perfect and which one is better is very much a matter of personal taste I think. If anyone has a suggestion for a killer cap in 1 nanofarad flavours you know where to find me.
/RJM
P.S. and a little tweak to brighten your day if you use a Black Gate for C3. Try removing the plastic outer wrap from the can and give it another listen.
While the OP27G/OPA27GP has an input datasheet input offset voltage of 0.03 mV typ / 0.1 mV max, the AD811 is considerably higher, 0.5 mV typ / 3 mV max.
So even with the new board, your measured value is well within specification for the op-amp you are using.
.....
In order to match my Phonoclone's frequency response I replaced the polystyrene caps with the mica ones I used in the old board. Although I did hear a voice in favour of the polystyrene over the mica a little while back, I'd like to cast my vote for the mica.
The polystyrene caps have a slight suck-out in the upper midrange, and are generally on the soft side in both bass extention and transient response. The silver-mica caps are the complete opposite, being slightly forward in the midrange, with well defined bass and transients, more transparent, but they sound a tad overwound to my ears. The opposite of relaxing if you will.
Im fairly confident this is beyond the small differences in frequency reponse due to the actual values used. I heard more-or-less the same in different builds earlier on. The polystyrene caps might improve with use though: I never did do a long term evaluation.
Neither is perfect and which one is better is very much a matter of personal taste I think. If anyone has a suggestion for a killer cap in 1 nanofarad flavours you know where to find me.
/RJM
P.S. and a little tweak to brighten your day if you use a Black Gate for C3. Try removing the plastic outer wrap from the can and give it another listen.
Hi Richard,
the AD811 was only in for a quick test, the measurments are taken with the op27 and with batteries, to make the parameters more comparable (and avoid could-be oscillations from the superreg).
In a final setup, the AD811 needs other values for the feedback res, because it serves another purpose, and the res from non-inverted input to ground has to be 0R, according to the datasheet. However, I did not try yet. So any measurements with the AD811 would not make sense right now.
C3: I will check how a dc-servo performs here once I solved my issues.
have fun,
Rüdiger
the AD811 was only in for a quick test, the measurments are taken with the op27 and with batteries, to make the parameters more comparable (and avoid could-be oscillations from the superreg).
In a final setup, the AD811 needs other values for the feedback res, because it serves another purpose, and the res from non-inverted input to ground has to be 0R, according to the datasheet. However, I did not try yet. So any measurements with the AD811 would not make sense right now.
C3: I will check how a dc-servo performs here once I solved my issues.
have fun,
Rüdiger
Hello Richard and others,
I'd like to let you kno that after carefully replacing the opamps my phonoclone is playing wonderfully again. Now I am more cautious and I do hope that my new cartridge ( a ZYX RS20-H) will not get into trouble
The Phonoclone is great with this cartridge. I changed the feedback resistor of the input opamp to 390R and the + input is now connected to ground. No noise at all, audible hiss (not sure if I use the correct word) only at very high volumes (I never listen to music at such high volume).
As I mentioned earlier I also use silver micas and I actually like them. Also tried WIMA FKP but they seemed to be too relaxed for me (actually something was missing). Partsconnexion offer some RelCap polystirene capacitors. Do you have any idea why they are so expensive? Are they so good? I also thought about using paper-in-oil caps but they are pretty big, and are not available in tolerances better than 10%. Still, how would this thing sound with Audio Note copper foils? Would cost a fortune unfortunately
One more thing that might be interesting for those using the phonoclone with batteries. I used to have two switches on the + and - supply wires. Now, during the investigation I found that switching off only one rail causes a pretty large input offset. I measured 600 mV without load and 70 mV with a load of 10 ohms. I believe this would cause only a little bit of heat power (0.5 mW) in the cartridge but still Better to be on the safe side ...
Szabolcs
PS: Do you have any idea why the original Phonocube is enclosed into a ceramic box of about 1 cm thickness? Silence inside?
I'd like to let you kno that after carefully replacing the opamps my phonoclone is playing wonderfully again. Now I am more cautious and I do hope that my new cartridge ( a ZYX RS20-H) will not get into trouble
The Phonoclone is great with this cartridge. I changed the feedback resistor of the input opamp to 390R and the + input is now connected to ground. No noise at all, audible hiss (not sure if I use the correct word) only at very high volumes (I never listen to music at such high volume).
As I mentioned earlier I also use silver micas and I actually like them. Also tried WIMA FKP but they seemed to be too relaxed for me (actually something was missing). Partsconnexion offer some RelCap polystirene capacitors. Do you have any idea why they are so expensive? Are they so good? I also thought about using paper-in-oil caps but they are pretty big, and are not available in tolerances better than 10%. Still, how would this thing sound with Audio Note copper foils? Would cost a fortune unfortunately
One more thing that might be interesting for those using the phonoclone with batteries. I used to have two switches on the + and - supply wires. Now, during the investigation I found that switching off only one rail causes a pretty large input offset. I measured 600 mV without load and 70 mV with a load of 10 ohms. I believe this would cause only a little bit of heat power (0.5 mW) in the cartridge but still
Better to be on the safe side ...Szabolcs
PS: Do you have any idea why the original Phonocube is enclosed into a ceramic box of about 1 cm thickness? Silence inside?
Hi again,
The so-called offset wasn't an offset, but a somehow resistive testwire
It's fine now. I made some more test with AD811, now with + connected to ground and 750R feedback. But wether I somehow degraded the chip (only one left) while swapping, or it is as it is, but the sound is too soft now and resolution is gone. More testing, maybe with superregs, next week or so.
@Szabcsi: Fine to hear your clone performs well again. I would be surprised, if paper-in-oil would good here. How does the ZYX compare to the denon sonically, do you recall?
Rüdiger
The so-called offset wasn't an offset, but a somehow resistive testwire
It's fine now. I made some more test with AD811, now with + connected to ground and 750R feedback. But wether I somehow degraded the chip (only one left) while swapping, or it is as it is, but the sound is too soft now and resolution is gone. More testing, maybe with superregs, next week or so.
@Szabcsi: Fine to hear your clone performs well again. I would be surprised, if paper-in-oil would good here. How does the ZYX compare to the denon sonically, do you recall?
Rüdiger
something was missing... Good. That's how I'd describe it, too. My ears are still calibrated, it seems.
You could use RELCAP RTE 51615 (1070pF) and 51622 (3200pF). These are currently only $4.40 each at parts connection. Just need to scale the resistors down ~10% to 100k and 680k.
Mmmm.. that actually works out really well. I wouldnt call $4.40 expensive, either.
I have no idea how much better these would sound compared to the normal polystyrene caps. The extra cost could be mostly for the 600V voltage rating for all I know.
/R
Richard,
I think I'll give them a try. I mistakenly looked at the price of the small values, which is $7.50 and considered using two or three for the ~3000 pF. The values you mentioned sound good because in that case I can use one cap for the ~3000 pF value instead of the two silver micas (680 + 2200). How accurate is the RIAA with the C and R values you listed ?
Rüdiger:
Yes, the paper-in-oils are probably betterl suited for the tubed stuff
Concerning the ZYX, it is a really fine cartridge. I have used a few cartridges (different Ortofons, two different Goldrings and the Denon) for a pretty long time, some of them for a thousand hours. So pretty well remember the sound character of them. I actually liked the Denon best of those. But the ZYX is another dimension. It keeps practically everything that the Denon does well and adds more transparency, more detail and lot less surface noise. Very-very neutral. Amaizingly quiet. The trebles are more extended and nicer. This is what I can say now after about 25 hours. It is still breaking in, the sound is improving and I will still have to fine-tune VTA, VTF etc. It seems to be very sensitive to VTA. As I understand this is due to the fact that it has a line-contact type stylus. The Denon was a lot easier to set up. Nevertheless, I still consider the Dl103 the real best buy at its price. The midrange of that is fabulous. (Now I would say that compared to the ZYX which I consider much more neutral the Denon slightly enforces the middle, eg. the human voices).
Unfortunately, I have heard the ZYX in a Schroeder tonearm. Since then I have longed for that My modified Rega was OK with the Denon but now I feel I would need a better arm Such is life
I think I'll give them a try. I mistakenly looked at the price of the small values, which is $7.50 and considered using two or three for the ~3000 pF. The values you mentioned sound good because in that case I can use one cap for the ~3000 pF value instead of the two silver micas (680 + 2200). How accurate is the RIAA with the C and R values you listed ?
Rüdiger:
Yes, the paper-in-oils are probably betterl suited for the tubed stuff
Concerning the ZYX, it is a really fine cartridge. I have used a few cartridges (different Ortofons, two different Goldrings and the Denon) for a pretty long time, some of them for a thousand hours. So pretty well remember the sound character of them. I actually liked the Denon best of those. But the ZYX is another dimension. It keeps practically everything that the Denon does well and adds more transparency, more detail and lot less surface noise. Very-very neutral. Amaizingly quiet. The trebles are more extended and nicer. This is what I can say now after about 25 hours. It is still breaking in, the sound is improving and I will still have to fine-tune VTA, VTF etc. It seems to be very sensitive to VTA. As I understand this is due to the fact that it has a line-contact type stylus. The Denon was a lot easier to set up. Nevertheless, I still consider the Dl103 the real best buy at its price. The midrange of that is fabulous. (Now I would say that compared to the ZYX which I consider much more neutral the Denon slightly enforces the middle, eg. the human voices).
Unfortunately, I have heard the ZYX in a Schroeder tonearm. Since then I have longed for that
My modified Rega was OK with the Denon but now I feel I would need a better arm Such is life
uh-oh, otitis audiophilis prolongis, poor chap...Szabcsi said:
Unfortunately, I have heard the ZYX in a Schroeder tonearm. Since then I have longed for that
Yes, the schroeder is great. But then, you want just anothoer cart, pre, player....
Rüdiger
Interesting statement Szabcsi on the ZYX RS20-H, about the VTA.
I have played for ages with an ELAC with vd Hul tip (MD). This cartridge gave a "real" depth and height to the soundstage when the VTA was right (you did NOT need to adjust for every record). The overall sonics musicality are not as good as my ZYX RS10, which again largely improved by the Phoneclone. The RS10 on the other hand (sphere and not line contact like the RS20) is far less sensitive to VTA.
The DENON 110 on the other hand is more sensitive to VTA. I have a still unused 103 for my retro project I get more and more interest how that will work out.
/R did you manage to ship all the kits last monday?
regards,
E&E
I have played for ages with an ELAC with vd Hul tip (MD). This cartridge gave a "real" depth and height to the soundstage when the VTA was right (you did NOT need to adjust for every record). The overall sonics musicality are not as good as my ZYX RS10, which again largely improved by the Phoneclone. The RS10 on the other hand (sphere and not line contact like the RS20) is far less sensitive to VTA.
The DENON 110 on the other hand is more sensitive to VTA. I have a still unused 103 for my retro project I get more and more interest how that will work out.
/R did you manage to ship all the kits last monday?
regards,
E&E
So please do your level best to match parts between channels to better than 3%
/R,
My balance is also shifting to one end, in my case to the right. It is hard to express but I will give it a try:
If centre = 0 degrees and fully right is +30 degrees I would describe my system as beeing at +15 degrees.
I did component selection within the 3% you mentioned with a mulitmeter, both R and C.
Two questions:
1. (Yes I Am lazy) how many dB would my right left difference be?
2. My feeling is that, not having a spectrum analyzer, the best way would be to balance by adjusting the gain of the first stage, i.e. R2. Is this the second best way (for an existing phoneclone)?
Regards,
E&E
/R,
My balance is also shifting to one end, in my case to the right. It is hard to express but I will give it a try:
If centre = 0 degrees and fully right is +30 degrees I would describe my system as beeing at +15 degrees.
I did component selection within the 3% you mentioned with a mulitmeter, both R and C.
Two questions:
1. (Yes I Am lazy) how many dB would my right left difference be?
2. My feeling is that, not having a spectrum analyzer, the best way would be to balance by adjusting the gain of the first stage, i.e. R2. Is this the second best way (for an existing phoneclone)?
Regards,
E&E