Here is the simulation of the Void V18-1000 8-Ohm, about 600w at its xmax vs the 18sw152 8-Ohm at about 900w at its xmax (grey). The low Xmax of the void is killing the performance in the lower region, where the Othorn shines at.
Here is four cabinets with HP and LP filter applied, the cone at xmax of its 10,5mm.
And here are four cabinets with the 18SW115 4 Ohm:
it looks to me that the Devestator 4*12" is coming in a lot less than a single high end 21" at 30 Hz.
Single 21" ~ 129dB@2m (-6dB from this dual 21" design) dB v2
Devestator: 121 dB @ 2m
EXPERIMENTAL Quad JBL Devastator Build - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Single 21" ~ 129dB@2m (-6dB from this dual 21" design) dB v2
Devestator: 121 dB @ 2m
EXPERIMENTAL Quad JBL Devastator Build - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Ok, if a single 21" enclosure is $2250, then 8-9 quad 12" Devastator's can be built. That's 32-36 twelves compared to one 21.
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Very true.
However, something that's of concern in the PA world is output density - output per cubic foot.
Given an exceptionally large horn, I can get really high LF SPLs from a single car audio 12".
However, the truck space and crew required to move such a thing means that, after two or three gigs, it's cheaper to buy a couple of really good 21" drivers and call it good.
If I was doing a large install system with low budget and lots of space, I'd consider a bunch of those 12"s for sure.
Chris
Unless I'm missing something and the 4*12" is capable of a lot more output its not making much sense to me. I don't think your $2250 price is realistic unless your using IPAL drivers.
Both subs are in similar sized cabinets, so I won't include wood prices. The LaVoce SAN214.50 21" is 469USD, from memory this sims about 2dB less than the IPAL (and also can run on a normal amplifier). which makes a single 21" 127dB/2m 469USD while a 4*12 is 116USD and 121dB/2m. So to match the 21" you need two cabs pushing it up to 232USD. But at that point you have doubled the amount of wood your using and more importantly (to me) your taking up twice as much space and time to build the cabs. Is 30Hrs of your time worth only 260USD?!? seems more efficient just to use the time to earn more money.
Both subs are in similar sized cabinets, so I won't include wood prices. The LaVoce SAN214.50 21" is 469USD, from memory this sims about 2dB less than the IPAL (and also can run on a normal amplifier). which makes a single 21" 127dB/2m 469USD while a 4*12 is 116USD and 121dB/2m. So to match the 21" you need two cabs pushing it up to 232USD. But at that point you have doubled the amount of wood your using and more importantly (to me) your taking up twice as much space and time to build the cabs. Is 30Hrs of your time worth only 260USD?!? seems more efficient just to use the time to earn more money.
Thanks, that's very useful! Seems like for a single cab the void is at most 3dB down from the B&C, and below 30hz is almost the same. Need to decide if the extra cost of the B&C driver is worth it for the extra output...
If a 221 = $4500, then a 121 SHOULD = $2250. I'm quoting the link.
You don't visit avsforum.com often. Space and time are usually not issues for bassheads when it comes to home theater. Hence, the EXPERIMENTAL 412 Devastator!
Ah, then the two of you are talking at cross-purposes. Kipman is talking about PA usage, where truck pack space and output density are strong considerations.
In a home theatre with lots of space (rare here in the UK), then I can see that a bunch of 12"s makes more sense.
Chris
I'm struggling even to see it from the huge room US perspective because even ignoring space considerations the extra driver cost of the 21" woofer required to match the single is 8*12" is only 232USD. For your 232USD saving you have to build an extra cab which takes a long time! the only way I can see this making sense is if you want a set number of cabs for room mode smoothing and don't need the extra output the 21" solution would give you.
As for the finished cab costs in the 1000's USD; from my experience of building cabs they are not so expensive, perhaps this includes the cost of someone else constructing it? even getting 3 1220*2440 sheets of birch ply CNC'ed here is coming in at £300 so perhaps ply is very expensive in the US?
If space is truly not a consideration you should consider FLH designs where multiple cabs form a shared mouth in blocks of 4...
As for the finished cab costs in the 1000's USD; from my experience of building cabs they are not so expensive, perhaps this includes the cost of someone else constructing it? even getting 3 1220*2440 sheets of birch ply CNC'ed here is coming in at £300 so perhaps ply is very expensive in the US?
If space is truly not a consideration you should consider FLH designs where multiple cabs form a shared mouth in blocks of 4...
Has anyone tested the Eminence NSW6021-6 with the Othorn at all? Is the cone up to the task? I'm trying to decide which driver to load a pair with that I hope to acquire soon.
At the moment it is between the B&C 21SW152 (£420/$523) or Eminence NSW6021-6 (£720/$896 - if even possible). Any other recommendations? I've simulated (Hornresp) quite a lot really with only the Eminence appearing to clearly come out on top.
What are the advantages of the 21SW152 4 Ohm over the 8 Ohm? The response on Hornresp seems to show the 8 Ohm on top on my simulation (parameters are correct).
Any help would be greatly appreciated! I am also very thankful to Josh for this free plan of what seems to be a great sub judging from feedback. Looking forward to seeing how they compare to the Void Stasys X V2 I already have.
At the moment it is between the B&C 21SW152 (£420/$523) or Eminence NSW6021-6 (£720/$896 - if even possible). Any other recommendations? I've simulated (Hornresp) quite a lot really with only the Eminence appearing to clearly come out on top.
What are the advantages of the 21SW152 4 Ohm over the 8 Ohm? The response on Hornresp seems to show the 8 Ohm on top on my simulation (parameters are correct).
Any help would be greatly appreciated! I am also very thankful to Josh for this free plan of what seems to be a great sub judging from feedback. Looking forward to seeing how they compare to the Void Stasys X V2 I already have.
After testing TC parameters Josh Ricci wrote about the Eminence NSW6021-6 last year "The low Qts and high motor force indicate that this driver is efficient and well damped. It should be suitable for highly loaded cabinet designs....All signs point to this being a very powerful and capable driver. We will have to see how outdoor ground-plane measurements in cabinet turn out."
The MMS, Xmax, and power handling all appear to be proportionately higher than the 21SW152-4, indicating it should be "up to the task".
I'd expect output to also be higher, though can't be sure about power compression comparisons from the specifications.
The price gap between the drivers is quite large, almost 3dB- do the sim results look like that much output difference?
When looking at drivers that can take 8 to 10kW peak, the lower impedance is an advantage primarily from an amplifier expense standpoint- there are few choices that can deliver that much power/voltage into 8 ohms.
The minimum impedance won't be much different between the "6 ohm" Eminence and the "4 ohm" B&C, but as well as paying more for the Eminence, more amplifier power will have to be purchased to get the performance it might provide.
Art
Oh right, the driver certainly looks to be up for powering the Othorn, I was just worried about the cone strength itself, given the high compression ratio of the Othorn.
I've attached an image showing the results when comparing the NSW6021-6 (grey) vs. the 21SW152-4 (black). Looks like around 2dB to me, if these results are accurate, that would mean a considerable amount less subs in order to achieve the same output.
I currently have an MC2 E90, powering 1 x 6 Ohm Eminence per side it would put out close to 1.5x the RMS value, whereas it would have more than double the RMS value of the 4 Ohm B&C and would happily power 4 I would have thought.
Thanks for your input Art!
I've attached an image showing the results when comparing the NSW6021-6 (grey) vs. the 21SW152-4 (black). Looks like around 2dB to me, if these results are accurate, that would mean a considerable amount less subs in order to achieve the same output.
I currently have an MC2 E90, powering 1 x 6 Ohm Eminence per side it would put out close to 1.5x the RMS value, whereas it would have more than double the RMS value of the 4 Ohm B&C and would happily power 4 I would have thought.
Thanks for your input Art!
Attachments
Danz9876,
With only two dB between the two drivers, and the NSW6021-6 requiring more power to achieve the output, power compression is a big "if"- if it's power compression is more than the B&C, that 2 dB difference could shrink to almost no gain when the coils heat up.
Power compression aside, it would take 5 of the 21SW152-4 cabinets to achieve the output of 4 of the NSW6021-6.
If we put cabinet cost at $500 per with your driver costs, 4x NSW6021 =$5584, 5x 21SW152 =$5115, still a cost savings for more B&C boxes.
I'm all for less cabinet building, hauling and storing, but I'd want to compare one with each driver driven hard before ordering more.
Art