Peter:
Since I'm too cheap to actually buy any 'high-end' caps, I resorted to the tried-and-true: borrowing.
Dave Dlugos (Planet10) was good enough to lend me a handful of (pairs of) capacitors yesterday.
I plan on using them with a relay switching board and my latest pair of myref's to build up an amp with switchable input caps- relays controlled from the listening position.
I'll let y'all know if I hear anything,and I'll try to get the rig 'in circulation' a bit to get input from better ears than mine.
It could turn out to be great entertainment at a diy get-together as well- I plan on having lots of colored lights , etc on the rig.
Cheers
John
Since I'm too cheap to actually buy any 'high-end' caps, I resorted to the tried-and-true: borrowing.
Dave Dlugos (Planet10) was good enough to lend me a handful of (pairs of) capacitors yesterday.
I plan on using them with a relay switching board and my latest pair of myref's to build up an amp with switchable input caps- relays controlled from the listening position.
I'll let y'all know if I hear anything,and I'll try to get the rig 'in circulation' a bit to get input from better ears than mine.
It could turn out to be great entertainment at a diy get-together as well- I plan on having lots of colored lights , etc on the rig.
Cheers
John
Great! Take your time.madisonears said:
That's sounds like total fun!VictoriaGuy said:
I figure this is like wine. There are different tastes and opinions, but there are also ways to agree that some wine is definitely in a different class than another, even if you don't personally like that particular one. I know I am like that with wines and there are certain wine critics with who I tend to agree.
I also know from wine tasting (if that analogy is indeed reasonable) that it is something that one can (must) learn to get there. There are structured exercises designed to help beginners start to distinguish the more subtle aspects. So it is with that attitude (learning to taste wine) that I approach this.
Enough now. Back to work.
peter
schro20 said:
Well, it's still a work in progress and I'm waiting other caps to test.
So far my list of positions suitable for upgraded parts is:
C21:
Swap AVX BQ with Wima MKS2/MKP2 (100 to 220 nF) (perfect fit)
Cleans-up highs, better soundstage and basses
Great reward, low cost (15 Eurocents ea)
C9:
Swap Panasonic FM with Elna Silmic II 220uF 35V (greater voltage rating are OK but more difficult to mount)
Sound has more body, everything is bigger (soundstage, reverb) bass is deeper and more controlled.
Great reward and reasonable cost (94 Eurocents ea)
C17, C18:
Swap with 100 nF X7R ceramics (AVX SkyCap) or better pull them out. (perfect fit)
More reverb, soundstage is bigger, dynamic is slightly increased
low cost, subtle but clearly audible improvement (18 Eurocents ea)
C19, C20:
Swap with 100 nF X7R ceramics (AVX SkyCap) or better pull them out. (perfect fit)
Dynamic is increased, sound seems more 'free'
low cost, clearly audible improvement (18 Eurocents ea)
C13:
Swap with a better one.
Together with C9/C21 this is the most rewarding swap but the ideal cap is yet to be determined.
Some better caps tried by me and/or others:
Low cost: Evox-Rifa PHE426 (87 Eurocents ea)
Mid cost: AudioCap Theta, Obbligato premium aluminum (ca 12$ ea)
High Cost: Mundorf SIO (ca 31 Euros ea)
High reward and ???? cost
C1, C2:
Yet to try
C30:
Yet to try
I used a Wima FKP2 and I suspect that is a nice improvement.
When I'll mount sockets for C1, C2 I'll try too the one in kit.
C6, C11:
Swap Panasonic FMs with Elna Silmics II 100 uF 35V (perfect fit)
Dynamic is increased, bass is even better, thicker and more articulated, sound is slightly warmer and has more body.
if you do prefer a more analytic sound probably you would keep FMsGreat reward and reasonable cost (74 Eurocents ea)
-----
Silmics require an initial burn-in of 20-40 hours This list is preliminary and subject to change as others caps are testedSo far the C9/C21 caps choice seems to be final.
ClaveFremen said:C6, C11:
Swap Panasonic FMs with Elna Silmics II 100 uF 35V (perfect fit)
Dynamic is increased, bass is even better, thicker and more articulated, sound is slightly warmer and has more body.
Great reward and reasonable cost (74 Eurocents ea)
Rereading my post I've noticed that it seems that difference swapping C6, C11 is not so big or important.
Actually difference is quite big:
- sound is slightly warmer but fully detailed and open
- there's little or no harshness
- soundstage is bigger and deeper
- bass gains authority, is even deeper, thicker and more articulated
- dynamic is slightly increased
- sound is not 'thin' it has 'flesh', body, texture
These considerations apply after an initial burn-in of 20-40 hours, at first they sound horriblyDario,
I was reading about Mundorf M-Cap. I saw a lot of references saying they were the best bang for buck cap for decoupling. Anyway, a guy is saying HERE that you should try bypassing the decoupling cap with a .1uf. Wonder if you might try this in your testing. Doesnt have to be Mundorf of course.
Uriah
I was reading about Mundorf M-Cap. I saw a lot of references saying they were the best bang for buck cap for decoupling. Anyway, a guy is saying HERE that you should try bypassing the decoupling cap with a .1uf. Wonder if you might try this in your testing. Doesnt have to be Mundorf of course.
Uriah
udailey said:
I've tried MCaps (the white ones, right?) in my brother's cd player and they sound quite good (a big step-up from electrolytics), but compared to a MCap Zn (I've used it in my SACD player) they're closed, muddy.
An MKP1837 (10 nF) bypass helped a lot but the ultimate clarity is another thing...
Never tried to bypass them with Supremes or Zns (too costly... 8€ and 4€ for a bypass cap!
)In crossover applications my central channel has an MCap in series with the tweeter and my front speakers have an MCap Supreme (both MKP1837 bypassed)... the difference is embarassing (as Supremes' price
)I've just ordered Obbligatos (8$ each) to try (one month to wait...
)In the next two weeks should arrive MKP10s that I've ordered at the end of last month.
I'm spending too much money on this amp
Mmh, I've just realized that it could be that you just asked to try a 100nF bypass, isn't it?
Not sure about Mundorf being "the best bang for the buck." The best ones are perhaps too expensive for what they can deliver to anything but the most highly resolving systems. I liked these amps almost as much with the AudioCap Theta at C13 as I do with the Mundorf SIO in the circuit. I'm past 50 hours burn-in, and the Mundorf's have changed A LOT, and all for the better. In some ways, this is the best sound I've ever heard from my stereo. If your other equipment is good stuff, you will appreciate the expensive SIO. But the AudioCap's (and perhaps others) will get you 90% of the way there at 1/5 the cost. If you demand that last 10% of performance, the Mundorf's deliver it like nothing else I've heard.
There is a slight coloration to the sound I hear now, but I don't think it's the Mundorf at C13; I think it's either the Elna Silmic or the Wima. It is not an overwhelming coloration until just the right tone appears in the music. There is a nasality, almost a phasey type of sound to the human voice and sometimes horns, but only on certain notes and types of singing. It is definitely some sort of resonance, and it attenuates the vocals and puts them way back in the soundstage behind all the other music when they should be most prominent. I first noticed it after inserting the Elna's and Wima's into the circuit (I made both changes at once--bad move). I thought it would go away as the caps burned in, but it hasn't, and it has become more annoying because everything else sounds so right. I can hardly explain it clearly because it's not something basic like rolled off highs or weak bass. It's right in the midrange, in the middle of vocals, where accuracy is most important. Every other aspect of the sound is ideal, and I really enjoy listening to it until this anomaly manifests itself.
I would be wary of this combination. If you change the Panny and AVX, do it one at a time, not both at once. I am planning to change one or the other, probably the Elna.
Peace,
Tom E
There is a slight coloration to the sound I hear now, but I don't think it's the Mundorf at C13; I think it's either the Elna Silmic or the Wima. It is not an overwhelming coloration until just the right tone appears in the music. There is a nasality, almost a phasey type of sound to the human voice and sometimes horns, but only on certain notes and types of singing. It is definitely some sort of resonance, and it attenuates the vocals and puts them way back in the soundstage behind all the other music when they should be most prominent. I first noticed it after inserting the Elna's and Wima's into the circuit (I made both changes at once--bad move). I thought it would go away as the caps burned in, but it hasn't, and it has become more annoying because everything else sounds so right. I can hardly explain it clearly because it's not something basic like rolled off highs or weak bass. It's right in the midrange, in the middle of vocals, where accuracy is most important. Every other aspect of the sound is ideal, and I really enjoy listening to it until this anomaly manifests itself.
I would be wary of this combination. If you change the Panny and AVX, do it one at a time, not both at once. I am planning to change one or the other, probably the Elna.
Peace,
Tom E
ClaveFremen said:Just tried PHE426 bypassed with:
MKP1837: soundstage is not as deep than without
MKS2: subtle but clearly audible improvement, soundstage a little better, bass is a bit tighter, cleans-up highs a bit too
BQ: subtle improvement, Wimas are a lot better.
Yeah Dario, thats what I meant. Basically snub the 1uf decoupling cap with a .1uf cap. Wonder if we could get away with a good cheap decoupling cap and put an expensive supposedly way better .1uf cap across it and get a good improvement. Looks like you did with that Rifa. Neat
Uriah
edit: The cool thing is that there are 4 holes for C13 so snubbing it can be easy.
Tom,
I've just finished a listening session swapping C9 with and without C21.
Without C21 (no bypass):
- both Panasonic FMs and Silmics II have quite the same tonal balance
- all differences previously stated between them remain valid but are more subtle
When you insert MKS2 in C21 a slight coloration becomes evident in the midrange, sound is slightly warmer, soundstage seems bigger, bass is tighter and overall cleans-up things.
I've tried also MKP1837 and no coloration is evident, tonal balance is quite identical, bass is tighter and overall cleans-up things.
Last time I've tried MKP1837 I was too severe... probably because I was seducted by the warmer MKS2
So about coloration I think I found the culprit but I can't hear the strange effect on voices you described, just a tonal difference
Maybe I've listened the wrong songs...
Dario,
I can't give you a comprehensive list of everything I've listened to in the past few days, but I'll give some examples after listening again. I will say that I notice this effect on almost every disc that features prominent vocals, especially female. Maybe this is the way these caps are supposed to sound, but I certainly don't like it. To reiterate, this became noticeable after installing the Elna Silmic's and Wima's at C9 and C21, not the Mundorf's at C13. It is almost undetectable on instrumentals, except an occaisional anomaly on horns. What this leads me to believe is that my philosophy on test music is due for a revision. In the past, I've always favored spectacular stuff with lots of highs and deep bass. I am now thinking that the best testing, at least for midrange, is done with what we are most familiar with: a solitary human voice.
Redshift,
Good suggestion, but I have the same speakers I've used in this room for almost ten years, and I've heard them with lots of other very nice amplifiers that don't make this effect. It is not due to speakers or room effects.
The Mundorf's continue to break in and change their sound, but less noticeably than right at the start. It's getting a little frustrating because I don't want to listen to a different sound every day.
Peace,
Tom E
I can't give you a comprehensive list of everything I've listened to in the past few days, but I'll give some examples after listening again. I will say that I notice this effect on almost every disc that features prominent vocals, especially female. Maybe this is the way these caps are supposed to sound, but I certainly don't like it. To reiterate, this became noticeable after installing the Elna Silmic's and Wima's at C9 and C21, not the Mundorf's at C13. It is almost undetectable on instrumentals, except an occaisional anomaly on horns. What this leads me to believe is that my philosophy on test music is due for a revision. In the past, I've always favored spectacular stuff with lots of highs and deep bass. I am now thinking that the best testing, at least for midrange, is done with what we are most familiar with: a solitary human voice.
Redshift,
Good suggestion, but I have the same speakers I've used in this room for almost ten years, and I've heard them with lots of other very nice amplifiers that don't make this effect. It is not due to speakers or room effects.
The Mundorf's continue to break in and change their sound, but less noticeably than right at the start. It's getting a little frustrating because I don't want to listen to a different sound every day.
Peace,
Tom E
Tom,
it could be that I've identified what you hear.
In my setup is subtle but clearly audible...
It's like female voices are somewhat more distant, less focused, isn't it?
Well, both Silmics and MKS2 give that same effect!
Swapping MKS2 with an MKP1837 this Silmics' effect is quite well mitigated, IMHO.
I would suggest you to try this first.
I'll keep MKP1837 mounted so they burn-in.
it could be that I've identified what you hear.
In my setup is subtle but clearly audible...
It's like female voices are somewhat more distant, less focused, isn't it?
Well, both Silmics and MKS2 give that same effect!
Swapping MKS2 with an MKP1837 this Silmics' effect is quite well mitigated, IMHO.
I would suggest you to try this first.
I'll keep MKP1837 mounted so they burn-in.
Dario,
Yes! That's it, exactly: distant and less focused, can't understand lyrics. Thanks for helping me out with this problem. I can also hear an effect on other vocals, but it is most apparent on female vocals. Yes, it is subtle, and I thought it might go away as caps burn-in, but it hasn't changed at all. It destroys all the other good things about the sound I'm getting because it is such an unusual coloration.
I will try removing the MKS2, but I don't know where to find an MKP1837 that will fit there. I was thinking of putting the AVX part back in there for now, and ordering this cap:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=BC2056-ND
Any comments?
Peace,
Tom E
Yes! That's it, exactly: distant and less focused, can't understand lyrics. Thanks for helping me out with this problem. I can also hear an effect on other vocals, but it is most apparent on female vocals. Yes, it is subtle, and I thought it might go away as caps burn-in, but it hasn't changed at all. It destroys all the other good things about the sound I'm getting because it is such an unusual coloration.
I will try removing the MKS2, but I don't know where to find an MKP1837 that will fit there. I was thinking of putting the AVX part back in there for now, and ordering this cap:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=BC2056-ND
Any comments?
Peace,
Tom E
madisonears said:
madisonears said:
Tom,
in the second quoted post you were referring to the same problem, right?
You're using 220nF caps and mine are 100nF and in my case the effect seems much more subtle.
Swapping 100 nF with 10 nF this effect is quite well mitigated, so I was guessing myself if the problem could reside in the value...
If you have some smaller value caps you could give them a try... (consider mounting sockets here, it could be a long quest
)