You might be surprised how good a COTS home theater sub sounds. I used a Polk PSW10 for my wife’s system. For $100 includes plate amp, box, and ready to use. I am using this with my 10F/RS225 FAST speakers and it sounds quite nice. No sawdust required. True, it is a BR, but below 80Hz, did not sound too bad at all.
I did notice that, however I do not have enough digital-out channels. I have RCA-out for ambient and subs due to the add-on card for my Asus Xonar ST.
Your plans blow my plans out of the water
.I think this route is a valid option. I'll try and find out if connecting it is relatively simple and straightforward.
You know the low end on the arrays out in my room, right? It will be hard enough to get it all lined up (at least from what I've read from other array users). I definitely won't try ported combined with my sealed arrays. I'd like to have the subs and arrays work together on the low end, not necessarily cross over at a specific frequency.
I'd like to keep this shape:
One thing I'm interested in is having the subs do the compensation per channel, aside from providing more headroom.
I've spoken before about the left covering for the right array at ~30 Hz and the right covering for the left array at ~60 Hz.
I'll see what I can make of it as soon as it's all up and running. If the compensation does not work: no problem, I'll still get headroom out of this deal.
If headroom does not work: not a big problem either, as I'm quite satisfied with my low end anyway. But I just have to try!
I'm hoping on improving what I've got, but it isn't born out of a need to improve. It's more curiosity driven to see if I can improve.
This may sound weird, but that's just what I am I guess (weird I mean, lol). If it's up to me, I'll leave no stone unturned to learn a couple of lessons.
Whatever the outcome may be, I'm fine with it.
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On a different note, everyone reading along here, did you catch this poll?
POLL: would you like a dedicated ACOUSTICS section? Yes/No
I spend a lot of this thread's posts on room behaviour and what we can do with it. Most of the ideas were sparkled early on when I was working on other projects but when I was looking for more information, this forum wasn't providing easy to find answers.
I've spend weeks/months browsing the Gearslutz forums as there's a lot of Pro's there that either work to create studios or work in studios. That really helped me out to get a grip on what I could do or try. Well, that and the many papers from David Griesinger on the subject. The original inspiration being Lycan/Werewolf over at DIYMobileaudio, yes... this same werewolf...
POLL: would you like a dedicated ACOUSTICS section? Yes/No
I spend a lot of this thread's posts on room behaviour and what we can do with it. Most of the ideas were sparkled early on when I was working on other projects but when I was looking for more information, this forum wasn't providing easy to find answers.
I've spend weeks/months browsing the Gearslutz forums as there's a lot of Pro's there that either work to create studios or work in studios. That really helped me out to get a grip on what I could do or try. Well, that and the many papers from David Griesinger on the subject. The original inspiration being Lycan/Werewolf over at DIYMobileaudio, yes... this same werewolf...
A quick question about your choice of using 1 line of tc9, hope you didn't answer multiple time. I'm wondered if using 2 or 3 lines of tc9 per side would introduce problems (treble). For example, making an array of 3 x 25 drivers. Did you put your two arrays close to each other and measure it as a mono system?
The ultimate system :
6x25 vifa in a hexagonal enclosure. Meet the omni directional line source
A line sounce creates comb filtering in the vertical axis, but due to the length does not exhibit issues in the horizontal plane. Whereas drivers placed side by side would create massive amount of comb filter effects in the horizontal axis grossly distorting the wavefront.
Makes me wonder how Eric Alexander gets away, as he apparently does, with this:
Ulfberht PMD Monitor - TektonDesign LLC
From all reports, these sound fabulous!
I'd say I have to agree with Greebster, due to our ears being at the sides of our head, this concept of a (single row) line array works pretty good. Side by side rows of drivers could work up to a degree, but they would be far more directional. Now if that were the goal, you could do marvellous things with arrays consisting of multiple rows of drivers.
By the way, the directionality can be heard in the video you linked, when he walks from one array to the other. Still hard to tell from a Youtube video how successful this speaker actually is. I like the recording mic, though it's making me seasick looking at it.
Long ago (before my time) there used to be a speaker called Sweet 16, consisting of a square of 16 full range drivers.
Prettier from the front:
The speaker linked in the video reminds me of that, but then put on steroids.
If I were planning multiple arrays, it would require lots of DSP to make it work for me, kind of like how the Beolab 90 works. You could actually steer the sound wherever you want.
Have it play wide, narrow etc at the touch of a button. Not at all easy to get right though. I'd need an anechoic chamber to make sense of it all, I'm sure!
The TektonDesign has been criticised in one of the threads recently. I think if the crossovers are smartly done it probably could function pretty good! I'd guess the highest frequencies are done by the vertical array of tweeters in the middle, the larger circles could come in a little lower to cover the upper midrange. It seems like it's used this way to actually beam the sound and probably avoid early reflections this way. Crude compared to the BeoLab but if it works and sells, why not be different?
Let's face it, with availability of DSP like we have these days we see more and more drivers being used in experimental speakers to be able to form and steer the sound. Each sharing the load...
Beolab 90:
Lexicon:
If you ask me, much more to come in the near future.
By the way, the directionality can be heard in the video you linked, when he walks from one array to the other. Still hard to tell from a Youtube video how successful this speaker actually is. I like the recording mic, though it's making me seasick looking at it.
Long ago (before my time) there used to be a speaker called Sweet 16, consisting of a square of 16 full range drivers.
Prettier from the front:
The speaker linked in the video reminds me of that, but then put on steroids.
If I were planning multiple arrays, it would require lots of DSP to make it work for me, kind of like how the Beolab 90 works. You could actually steer the sound wherever you want.
Have it play wide, narrow etc at the touch of a button. Not at all easy to get right though. I'd need an anechoic chamber to make sense of it all, I'm sure!
The TektonDesign has been criticised in one of the threads recently. I think if the crossovers are smartly done it probably could function pretty good! I'd guess the highest frequencies are done by the vertical array of tweeters in the middle, the larger circles could come in a little lower to cover the upper midrange. It seems like it's used this way to actually beam the sound and probably avoid early reflections this way. Crude compared to the BeoLab but if it works and sells, why not be different?
Let's face it, with availability of DSP like we have these days we see more and more drivers being used in experimental speakers to be able to form and steer the sound. Each sharing the load...
Beolab 90:
Lexicon:
If you ask me, much more to come in the near future.
Attachments
Sadly, no... That's my livingroom kicking in. I managed to absorb most of the early stuff and in fact the Haas kicker lines up pretty good with that energy I couldn't get rid of. Being in a living room I had to make a promise to my girl not to add any more panels. 3 pretty big panels, one in plain sight were enough for her.
So this is the small residue I was left with in an otherwise pretty normal and functional living room. I would have loved to take/push it further, have a dedicated room, but I doubt we would/could still call it a living room after I'd be done with it!
In such a room I might have gone completely over the top with rows of speakers
. And definitely a big screen for movies!I think it's good to always have some wishes left!
Ok thank you for answer Ronald.
This is impressive really.
This 'cloud' is in the most difficult place/area (150/250hz) to treat without going crazy with absorbtion anyway ( for what i ve seen). And with 30ms gap this is not that critical from my experience, it won t screw up the important first ms of sound played which is the point in my view.
So this is a tda at listening point... hats off to you!
Given the stealthness of treatments in your room and the graph results you have, i'm speechless.
I already told you in private some years ago but i think you could make something commercial about all that work.
Really.
I know the point about using a listening/living room with other human beings... now i ve got a kid my living room isn t a control room anymore ( my girl is pretty tolerant to gear and loudspeakers i'm the lucky one here )! I m torn between the wish he stay a cute little bugger and the wish he leave the house!
This is impressive really.
This 'cloud' is in the most difficult place/area (150/250hz) to treat without going crazy with absorbtion anyway ( for what i ve seen). And with 30ms gap this is not that critical from my experience, it won t screw up the important first ms of sound played which is the point in my view.
So this is a tda at listening point... hats off to you!
Given the stealthness of treatments in your room and the graph results you have, i'm speechless.
I already told you in private some years ago but i think you could make something commercial about all that work.
Really.
I know the point about using a listening/living room with other human beings... now i ve got a kid my living room isn t a control room anymore ( my girl is pretty tolerant to gear and loudspeakers i'm the lucky one here
)! I m torn between the wish he stay a cute little bugger and the wish he leave the house!
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Yes, I followed the theory to create a reasonable reflection free zone (not exactly reflection free, but way above averages for normal living rooms)
Together with some ambience added I'm quite pleased. I think a lot of people would think its a lot of DSP and doesn't hold up at different angles, but it's actually the absorption panels that do most of the trickery, combined with the array behaviour.
I would have loved to make a career out of it, but it might even take the fun out of it.
I'm not a sales person, I just love the inner workings of it all. I'm still seeing this as one really big study case, and I'm not done learning just yet!
Together with some ambience added I'm quite pleased. I think a lot of people would think its a lot of DSP and doesn't hold up at different angles, but it's actually the absorption panels that do most of the trickery, combined with the array behaviour.
I would have loved to make a career out of it, but it might even take the fun out of it.
I'm not a sales person, I just love the inner workings of it all. I'm still seeing this as one really big study case, and I'm not done learning just yet!
I understand your view about the lack of fun once it is a job.
That said this is a nice and complete integration which could deserve an article ( in the university kind of).
I may contact you in near future as i have some question to ask.
Can't wait to see your integration of sub and what you'll discover.
That said this is a nice and complete integration which could deserve an article ( in the university kind of).
I may contact you in near future as i have some question to ask.
Can't wait to see your integration of sub and what you'll discover.
@krivium I'll be here (I practically live here )...
Still working on the subwoofers, though progress is slow. I'm not going to take the time to shoot pictures of each step. It probably won't be that interesting anyway as it is a lot more straight forward than the arrays were.
In the mean time I do not forget mandatory listening sessions with the arrays. I thoroughly enjoyed: Ayreon - The Garden of Emotions from the album: Into the Electric Castle.
YouTube
I was playing around with ambience and this song just blossoms with the right settings. The whole album is bombastic and grand, but I have to admit I love it like that.
Lots of changes and transitions and moments of sheer power alternated by overly harmonic parts. In short, it takes me on a trip. I'm pretty sure this music isn't for everyone, but the 80's Rock/guitar-band lovers might like it. It did raise the hairs on my arm again.
For a long time I used to play only a couple of songs (mostly No. 2 and 5, I guess I really like Fish) of this album. While being on vacation I played the whole album again wearing ear buds. I have more Ayreon albums, but this is the one that stand the test of time for me. I still think it is as brilliant today as the day I first heard it back in 1998.
No doubt I have promoted this album before, somewhere on this thread. With over 4000 posts this thread has grown into more than just a build thread, so I have to throw in some music every now and then.
)...Still working on the subwoofers, though progress is slow. I'm not going to take the time to shoot pictures of each step. It probably won't be that interesting anyway as it is a lot more straight forward than the arrays were.
In the mean time I do not forget mandatory listening sessions with the arrays. I thoroughly enjoyed: Ayreon - The Garden of Emotions from the album: Into the Electric Castle.
YouTube
I was playing around with ambience and this song just blossoms with the right settings. The whole album is bombastic and grand, but I have to admit I love it like that.
Lots of changes and transitions and moments of sheer power alternated by overly harmonic parts. In short, it takes me on a trip. I'm pretty sure this music isn't for everyone, but the 80's Rock/guitar-band lovers might like it. It did raise the hairs on my arm again.
For a long time I used to play only a couple of songs (mostly No. 2 and 5, I guess I really like Fish) of this album. While being on vacation I played the whole album again wearing ear buds. I have more Ayreon albums, but this is the one that stand the test of time for me. I still think it is as brilliant today as the day I first heard it back in 1998.
No doubt I have promoted this album before, somewhere on this thread. With over 4000 posts this thread has grown into more than just a build thread, so I have to throw in some music every now and then.
And loving it!
Without you, I would have probably never heard of Infected Mushroom.
Ayreon is like Genesis or Yes ... on steroids! A lot more intense!
Probably closer to something like Dream Theater.
They were great speakers. Fairly directional left/right but not vertically as they were ceiling height. The effortless and dynamic sound from them were fantastic, but a couple of drivers started rubbing/crackling and i replaced them with another project. Here is the build thread:
Ceiling panel speaker array build - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
Just done stating I won't do pictures and here I go
After all, this thread is worthless without pictures, right? Wouldn't want to make you guys think I bought a couple of subs around the corner.
Front baffle with a liberate round-over. Consisting of 2 layers of 15mm ply and an outer part of 18mm ply with 15 mm round-overs on the woofer cut-out and both sides. The open space you see there is where the woofer is going to sit. So it's similar to the double baffle I have on the arrays. The woofer will be bolt onto the back baffle, The front baffle will go over that and be tied to the back of the sub with threaded rods.
Before anyone asks, no I don't think that round-over does anything worthwhile at these frequencies, it's just there to tie the design of the subs to the arrays.
I'm still pondering if I'll do the logo engraved or embossed on the sides. It's obvious this would take more time...
but I think it could look cool and it adds a personal touch... Heck of a lot of work though.
After all, this thread is worthless without pictures, right? Wouldn't want to make you guys think I bought a couple of subs around the corner.
Front baffle with a liberate round-over. Consisting of 2 layers of 15mm ply and an outer part of 18mm ply with 15 mm round-overs on the woofer cut-out and both sides. The open space you see there is where the woofer is going to sit. So it's similar to the double baffle I have on the arrays. The woofer will be bolt onto the back baffle, The front baffle will go over that and be tied to the back of the sub with threaded rods.
Before anyone asks, no I don't think that round-over does anything worthwhile at these frequencies, it's just there to tie the design of the subs to the arrays.
I'm still pondering if I'll do the logo engraved or embossed on the sides. It's obvious this would take more time...
but I think it could look cool and it adds a personal touch... Heck of a lot of work though.
Attachments
The first song I ever heard from Infected Mushroom was Avratz. It was recommended to me by a fellow member of the DIYMobileAudio forums.
So I'm just paying it forward...
Thanks for the link! Fun to see the actual panels.
Hey thanks for the photo of the Sweet Sixteen. I have heard some old timers talk about it, but never seen it. Looks like fun.
I've only read about them, never heard one...