Damping
Maybe that's one of the mysteries "objective" engineers can explain... or deny, which they will probably prefer.
In the case of the gainclone as is usually proposed, soldered point to point, the reason for the effect Peter described might be on this assembly.
I don't quite understand the reason why this prehistoric assembly fashion is still preserved, as you can do short paths using pcb techniques too, and damping is automatic when you insert a part on a pcb.
Other mechanical assemblies, like the transformer, bridge and big caps (when you use them) should be considered too.
If the inverted gainclone is more prone to grounding noises, as was commented on some threads, then that might be adding some more fuzz too.
Carlos
Rookie said:
Maybe that's one of the mysteries "objective" engineers can explain... or deny, which they will probably prefer.
In the case of the gainclone as is usually proposed, soldered point to point, the reason for the effect Peter described might be on this assembly.
I don't quite understand the reason why this prehistoric assembly fashion is still preserved, as you can do short paths using pcb techniques too, and damping is automatic when you insert a part on a pcb.
Other mechanical assemblies, like the transformer, bridge and big caps (when you use them) should be considered too.
If the inverted gainclone is more prone to grounding noises, as was commented on some threads, then that might be adding some more fuzz too.
Carlos
Damping
There are two very interesting articles, by Darcy Staggs and published on AudioXpress, on how he damped his DVD player using lead sheet and sticking them almost everywhere.
Damping (or grounding as is the case of spikes for electronics and speakers) has been around for a long time, and when it makes an audible difference is a sign that we are doing things well and our system is getting more transparent.
The more transparent a system gets, the finer the problems that have to be solved, but they seem to make a huge difference. Which is a contradiction, apparently, but only because the larger issues were left behind.
Carlos
There are two very interesting articles, by Darcy Staggs and published on AudioXpress, on how he damped his DVD player using lead sheet and sticking them almost everywhere.
Damping (or grounding as is the case of spikes for electronics and speakers) has been around for a long time, and when it makes an audible difference is a sign that we are doing things well and our system is getting more transparent.
The more transparent a system gets, the finer the problems that have to be solved, but they seem to make a huge difference. Which is a contradiction, apparently, but only because the larger issues were left behind.
Carlos
Re: Spiral Spikes.
I will try it. But one thing that might keep me from using it, though, is aesthetic reason. Too many people still are very doubtful about the effects of such devices. And they might not like it in a commercial product. You know, it's totally against their believe system, which they are so used to (and comfortable with as well).
mrfeedback said:
I will try it. But one thing that might keep me from using it, though, is aesthetic reason. Too many people still are very doubtful about the effects of such devices. And they might not like it in a commercial product. You know, it's totally against their believe system, which they are so used to (and comfortable with as well).
Re: Spiral Spikes.
Those are great. Highly resonant. They'll keep your equipment vibrating for a looooooong time.
That's actually where the good sound comes from. Vibration. You want to KEEP vibrational energy in your components for as long as possible. Preventing vibration or damping existing vibration is what causes bad sound. You want to keep the component vibrating long after the initial impulse. The longer the better.
se
mrfeedback said:
Those are great. Highly resonant. They'll keep your equipment vibrating for a looooooong time.
That's actually where the good sound comes from. Vibration. You want to KEEP vibrational energy in your components for as long as possible. Preventing vibration or damping existing vibration is what causes bad sound. You want to keep the component vibrating long after the initial impulse. The longer the better.
se
vibrations and electronic circuitry
How is it that putting an electronic assembly on springs can improve the sound, and putting it on spikes can also improve the sound? Don't these two actions have opposite effects from a vibration standpoint? If one improves the sound, shouldn't the other action degrade the sound?
Also -- has anyone tried spraying a a PCB or P2P electronic assembly with the vibration absorping stuff intended for car panels and speaker enclosures? If there is any merit to dampening vibrations of electronic components, this procedure should demonstrate it. Or to test the idea of going in the opposite direction, put the undamped electronic assembly in front of the speaker and let 'er rip. If there's an effect this should show it dramatically.
How is it that putting an electronic assembly on springs can improve the sound, and putting it on spikes can also improve the sound? Don't these two actions have opposite effects from a vibration standpoint? If one improves the sound, shouldn't the other action degrade the sound?
Also -- has anyone tried spraying a a PCB or P2P electronic assembly with the vibration absorping stuff intended for car panels and speaker enclosures? If there is any merit to dampening vibrations of electronic components, this procedure should demonstrate it. Or to test the idea of going in the opposite direction, put the undamped electronic assembly in front of the speaker and let 'er rip. If there's an effect this should show it dramatically.
Re: vibrations and electronic circuitry
Pretty much, yup.
A spike effectively couples the component to whatever it's sitting on and vice versa. So it will both transfer vibrational energy from the component to whatever it's sitting on and conversely, it will transfer vibrational energy from whatever it's sitting on to the component.
A spring on the other hand stores energy and subsequently returns it. So if for example your component is resting on springs which are subsequently resting on some sort of rigid platform, vibrational energy from the component is transferred into the springs which stores the energy and returns it back to the component.
The component will then tend to return that returned energy back to the spring and so on and so forth until the frictional elements in the system eventually convert all of the energy to heat.
Well, improvment in sound is a subjective measure and that being the case, not a whole lot tends to make much sense when examined logically.
se
David B said:
Pretty much, yup.
A spike effectively couples the component to whatever it's sitting on and vice versa. So it will both transfer vibrational energy from the component to whatever it's sitting on and conversely, it will transfer vibrational energy from whatever it's sitting on to the component.
A spring on the other hand stores energy and subsequently returns it. So if for example your component is resting on springs which are subsequently resting on some sort of rigid platform, vibrational energy from the component is transferred into the springs which stores the energy and returns it back to the component.
The component will then tend to return that returned energy back to the spring and so on and so forth until the frictional elements in the system eventually convert all of the energy to heat.
Well, improvment in sound is a subjective measure and that being the case, not a whole lot tends to make much sense when examined logically.
se
Re: vibrations and electronic circuitry
Electronics suffer from microphonics. Tubes more so than SS, but vibration control is an important element for electronics. YBA is an example of a commercial company that pays particular attention, and touts it, to vibration control. Linn (at least in there CD12) too. NAIM is another.
I have heard experiments where a sheet of car damping was stuck onto the circuit board -- component side (made a big mess) -- but it sounded better.
The difference between a good hifi and a really good hifi is 40 or 50 or more dB down -- and it is very small details that are in effect here.
dave
David B said:
Electronics suffer from microphonics. Tubes more so than SS, but vibration control is an important element for electronics. YBA is an example of a commercial company that pays particular attention, and touts it, to vibration control. Linn (at least in there CD12) too. NAIM is another.
I have heard experiments where a sheet of car damping was stuck onto the circuit board -- component side (made a big mess) -- but it sounded better.
The difference between a good hifi and a really good hifi is 40 or 50 or more dB down -- and it is very small details that are in effect here.
dave
Re: Re: vibrations and electronic circuitry
But these devices are both very frequency dependent, they will tramsmit frequencies only beyond a certain cutoff.
A fiend has a speaker system where the tweeter pod is mounted on a spring based assembly. This damped resonant system effectively isolates the tweeter pod from the frequencies that the bass cabinet vibrates at.
This same principle is used in suspended TTs.
dave
Steve Eddy said:
But these devices are both very frequency dependent, they will tramsmit frequencies only beyond a certain cutoff.
A fiend has a speaker system where the tweeter pod is mounted on a spring based assembly. This damped resonant system effectively isolates the tweeter pod from the frequencies that the bass cabinet vibrates at.
This same principle is used in suspended TTs.
dave
Re: Re: Re: vibrations and electronic circuitry
Yes, spring/mass systems are frequency dependent. They couple below their resonant frequencies and isolate above them.
However a solid cone is so rigid that even when loaded with a fair amount of mass will still have a resonant frequency so high that at audio frequencies, it will couple everything.
Yes, but we're talking about valve springs here. Which are very stiff compared to the higher compliance springs used for such things as turntables. Those systems typically have very low resonant frequnecies (sub-1Hz) so they provide excellent isolation at audio frequencies. They also employ a fair amount of damping which gives you a very low Q resonance.
Using valve springs mass loaded by a typical component will have a resonant frequency well within the audio band and since there's no damping employed, that resonance will have a rather high Q, which means lots of energy storage.
So if using valve springs provides a beneficial result, then the obvious conclusion is that it's due to keeping vibrational energy in the component for long periods of time.
se
planet10 said:
Yes, spring/mass systems are frequency dependent. They couple below their resonant frequencies and isolate above them.
However a solid cone is so rigid that even when loaded with a fair amount of mass will still have a resonant frequency so high that at audio frequencies, it will couple everything.
Yes, but we're talking about valve springs here. Which are very stiff compared to the higher compliance springs used for such things as turntables. Those systems typically have very low resonant frequnecies (sub-1Hz) so they provide excellent isolation at audio frequencies. They also employ a fair amount of damping which gives you a very low Q resonance.
Using valve springs mass loaded by a typical component will have a resonant frequency well within the audio band and since there's no damping employed, that resonance will have a rather high Q, which means lots of energy storage.
So if using valve springs provides a beneficial result, then the obvious conclusion is that it's due to keeping vibrational energy in the component for long periods of time.
se
Re: Re: vibrations and electronic circuitry
Yes. But there seems to be a lot of conflicting definitions as to what constitutes "control" as well as a lot of misunderstanding about what the various devices and treatments actually do.
So if one isn't quite sure what they mean about "control" and doesn't understand the physics with regard to what to do to control it once they are, then you're basically just shooting in the dark.
So the first question one needs to ask is, just what is it exactly you want to accomplish?
se
planet10 said:
Yes. But there seems to be a lot of conflicting definitions as to what constitutes "control" as well as a lot of misunderstanding about what the various devices and treatments actually do.
So if one isn't quite sure what they mean about "control" and doesn't understand the physics with regard to what to do to control it once they are, then you're basically just shooting in the dark.
So the first question one needs to ask is, just what is it exactly you want to accomplish?
se
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