I made a couple of improvments. First I moved the speakers out of the nasty small listening room and back into the big room but away from the alcoves. No corner loading and only minimal wall loading. At about 10 or maybe 15000 cubic feet, this room is big enough to not mess with the bass as much as the smaller room.
Next improvment was opening up the CC to the full amount and draining the kitty litter out. I need longer IC's to do any measuring in the big room but before I cut the chamber open I did a quick sim to make sure it was not a really stupid idea for some reason. The sim is probably not very accurate for a few reasons (so many segments, no real need to spend too much time on this, etc), but it was enough to convince me to fire up the drill.
The top model is the horn with small chamber. Below is the same thing but with the chamber opened up. (both w/126 - 108 looks good too with large chamber)
I like the bottom one better (obviously) and at first listen it certainly sounds better, and certain rogue female vocals no longer rattle the heating vent covers. Notably, the first problem peak is significantly narrowed and the second peak is reduced 3db and doesn't look like a problem at all anymore - not necessarily accurate, but it does sound better. Unfortunately displacement goes up a full 1/3 but such is life.
A few more tweaks and it should be almost perfect without any eq, at least in the room they are currently in, and they should work better in a variety of smaller rooms now I think. BTW, did I mention the detail? Nice.
Next improvment was opening up the CC to the full amount and draining the kitty litter out. I need longer IC's to do any measuring in the big room but before I cut the chamber open I did a quick sim to make sure it was not a really stupid idea for some reason. The sim is probably not very accurate for a few reasons (so many segments, no real need to spend too much time on this, etc), but it was enough to convince me to fire up the drill.
The top model is the horn with small chamber. Below is the same thing but with the chamber opened up. (both w/126 - 108 looks good too with large chamber)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I like the bottom one better (obviously) and at first listen it certainly sounds better, and certain rogue female vocals no longer rattle the heating vent covers. Notably, the first problem peak is significantly narrowed and the second peak is reduced 3db and doesn't look like a problem at all anymore - not necessarily accurate, but it does sound better. Unfortunately displacement goes up a full 1/3 but such is life.
A few more tweaks and it should be almost perfect without any eq, at least in the room they are currently in, and they should work better in a variety of smaller rooms now I think. BTW, did I mention the detail? Nice.
And this will be my final note on this subject.
I thought I was getting close with my weeks of tweaks but in the end these just sound broken compared side by side to (slightly oversized inverted) BIBs (w/126) and mini onken in the 2 rooms I have to test (one small and one big room). Nothing I could do could tame the twin midbass peaks at ~110 and 230 hz (except large doses of eq). I honestly thought corner placement would flatten these bumps out but it actually made it just so much worse overall.
They live in the closet now. I don't have the heart to burn them although it would give me a tremendous amount of satisfaction at this point. Maybe one day I'll have a room that compliments them. Probably not.
I learned a lot and from now on I'll be paying close attention to predicted fr sims and consciously remembering to take the listening room into account before building - especially wrt horns. Especially horns with 10+ db predicted peaks in the midbass.
I thought I was getting close with my weeks of tweaks but in the end these just sound broken compared side by side to (slightly oversized inverted) BIBs (w/126) and mini onken in the 2 rooms I have to test (one small and one big room). Nothing I could do could tame the twin midbass peaks at ~110 and 230 hz (except large doses of eq). I honestly thought corner placement would flatten these bumps out but it actually made it just so much worse overall.
They live in the closet now. I don't have the heart to burn them although it would give me a tremendous amount of satisfaction at this point. Maybe one day I'll have a room that compliments them. Probably not.
I learned a lot and from now on I'll be paying close attention to predicted fr sims and consciously remembering to take the listening room into account before building - especially wrt horns. Especially horns with 10+ db predicted peaks in the midbass.
Can someone explain this? I have to believe this is not the last word -- if the peaks were predicted, then they are on purpose, no? Presumably for good reason.
I know you're being partly humorous but are you referring to the hype of this general category based on that "other" design?
If the response was as predicted, I think that's not hype, that's engineering.
I would like to hear a rebuttal to the vibe that this design is sub-par! The problems sound like they were just as room-dependent as any other design.
"Other" meaning Ed's?
I think it all comes down to perspective as far as the FH is concerned.. In a small low ceiling room, and if WAF is an absolute factor (then loose the Supra baffle of course).. I just think it is very over-rated for the complexity of build, plus a floor stander should have the driver up higher IMO.. I think with the FH, and a certain horn from down south, the reason for the success of them has more to do with WAF than anything else.. Anyhow that's just my opinion, and for the complexity of build , and for a BLH, I'd go A126 or BIB over the FH most definitely.. Do a comparison for yourself and see what you think...
Dave
I think it all comes down to perspective as far as the FH is concerned.. In a small low ceiling room, and if WAF is an absolute factor (then loose the Supra baffle of course).. I just think it is very over-rated for the complexity of build, plus a floor stander should have the driver up higher IMO.. I think with the FH, and a certain horn from down south, the reason for the success of them has more to do with WAF than anything else.. Anyhow that's just my opinion, and for the complexity of build , and for a BLH, I'd go A126 or BIB over the FH most definitely.. Do a comparison for yourself and see what you think...
Dave
My edit limit was up so I'll ad this:
I've said this way back when, but if it was me I would re-work the FH to have a decent driver height.. I think if the FH was made a little larger and could be used without the SB, it would still be very high on the WAF factor while becoming a much better "audiophile choice" compared to what it is now...
Although the BVR's seem to be more focused on now, it would be real sweet to see Dave re-design the FH if he was so inclined...
Dave
I've said this way back when, but if it was me I would re-work the FH to have a decent driver height.. I think if the FH was made a little larger and could be used without the SB, it would still be very high on the WAF factor while becoming a much better "audiophile choice" compared to what it is now...
Although the BVR's seem to be more focused on now, it would be real sweet to see Dave re-design the FH if he was so inclined...
Dave
Let me address these:
0/ the design brief for the Frugel-Horn was to create a diy buildable corner loaded BLH that fit into the format determined by the Hornshoppe Horn. That determined driver height and basic size and configuration. In that respect it has succeeded admirably, with many people happily enjoying their Frugel-Horns
1/ DaveCan has never heard a set of Frugel-Horns (he did hear a set of early proto-type Level 0) with FE108eS and a larger than optimum air cavity. It should be noted that (admittedly in non-optimal placement conditions) that this early proto of the FH had less audible ripple than DaveCan's FE108eS BIBs (the objectionable (to me) ripple in those BIBs inspiring the concepts in the iBIBk)
2/ Driver height. Fixed by the design brief, and of note is about the same distance below the listening axis as the RonHorn A126 is above the axis...
3/ If someone can live with a larger horn, then the A126, Mikasa, & Saburo are advances on the Frugel-Horn.
4/ development has not stopped on the Frugel-Horn, V2 is slowly under development/consideration as well as a 1st cut of a bigger sibling that throws out some of the size constraints. Now that any hope of seeing MJK sheets capable of simming corner loading seem gone, development will have to proceed without them.
dave
0/ the design brief for the Frugel-Horn was to create a diy buildable corner loaded BLH that fit into the format determined by the Hornshoppe Horn. That determined driver height and basic size and configuration. In that respect it has succeeded admirably, with many people happily enjoying their Frugel-Horns
1/ DaveCan has never heard a set of Frugel-Horns (he did hear a set of early proto-type Level 0) with FE108eS and a larger than optimum air cavity. It should be noted that (admittedly in non-optimal placement conditions) that this early proto of the FH had less audible ripple than DaveCan's FE108eS BIBs (the objectionable (to me) ripple in those BIBs inspiring the concepts in the iBIBk)
2/ Driver height. Fixed by the design brief, and of note is about the same distance below the listening axis as the RonHorn A126 is above the axis...
3/ If someone can live with a larger horn, then the A126, Mikasa, & Saburo are advances on the Frugel-Horn.
4/ development has not stopped on the Frugel-Horn, V2 is slowly under development/consideration as well as a 1st cut of a bigger sibling that throws out some of the size constraints. Now that any hope of seeing MJK sheets capable of simming corner loading seem gone, development will have to proceed without them.
dave
I heard them at the the beginning when they would of had higher WAF for most 99%.. Then with the SB and the rear deflector. Also with 108's and 126's, treated and untreated which at that time was the bluish look, and also that first pattern on the cone... You still have the low driver height though... The FH started out as a effort to better a certain other horn, which IMO already had a significant flaw not worth emulating (driver height) but huge WAF... It would be very cool to see all that abandoned and take the FH a step closer to the A126 or even better it... The FH re-worked to have the driver centered around say 37'' could be a very killer little BLH if the design worked out right...
Dave
Dave
Dave on your point #1 on the last page, scroll up and look at the pic I posted, what FH level is that? You can't see the back deflector in that pic, but it was there also.. In fact in the pic the FH is sitting on a piece of wood on top of the false corners.. That piece of wood had the wedges attached to the other end to provide the deflectors etc.. It should be noted that my BIB's were never used in the false corners, nor with the deflectors as with the FH and A126 that day..
Dave
Dave
Virtually no build or design cannot be improved upon. Most, are rather a work in progress.
Synergy, while often overused, also comes very much into play here. All the associated components, INCLUDING the room, (and ever important WAF) factor in here as noted above. Choose your compromise(s)!
Hat's off to Dave, Scott, Ron, Chris, etc, etc.
IMHO, considering the stated design goals, I'd say the "Frugels" perform rather well
That said, there are certainly other mountains to climb.
Anyone considering them will at least improve upon their woodworking skills, and, who knows!!
FWIW, Don
Synergy, while often overused, also comes very much into play here. All the associated components, INCLUDING the room, (and ever important WAF) factor in here as noted above. Choose your compromise(s)!
Hat's off to Dave, Scott, Ron, Chris, etc, etc.
IMHO, considering the stated design goals, I'd say the "Frugels" perform rather well
That said, there are certainly other mountains to climb.
Anyone considering them will at least improve upon their woodworking skills, and, who knows!!
FWIW, Don
DaveCan said:Dave on your point #1 on the last page, scroll up and look at the pic I posted, what FH level is that? You can't see the back deflector in that pic, but it was there also..
Dave
A level 0 with a proto sB... it has no official standing because you wouldn't put an sB on a Level 0, you'd make a Level 1 1st.
attached is a pic of the 1st session, DavCan -- note that he is taller then most people -- embracing A126 and FH-proto
(BTW those protos, sans sB and nicely finished in walnut veneer are available really cheap)
dave
Attachments
I'm 5' 11'' and now the hair is gone (should have shaved the head long ago lol)...
I haven't bothered to post my impressions for a long time for just this reason, the perception that my words may be taken as a slam against everything.. I think with the BIB you guys push the ripple point which is fine, but with the FH from my first listening, although impressive it was driver height that factored in for me... I didn't invent the BIB remember, therefore I could care less about the perception of mine.. But I must say that listening to mine in room I can't see where Chris's mid paragraph post in post #1009 is coming from.. They sounded quite fine to me compared to the others that day and certainly don't fall apart on the 6watts we had on tap that day etc..
Dave
I haven't bothered to post my impressions for a long time for just this reason, the perception that my words may be taken as a slam against everything.. I think with the BIB you guys push the ripple point which is fine, but with the FH from my first listening, although impressive it was driver height that factored in for me... I didn't invent the BIB remember, therefore I could care less about the perception of mine.. But I must say that listening to mine in room I can't see where Chris's mid paragraph post in post #1009 is coming from.. They sounded quite fine to me compared to the others that day and certainly don't fall apart on the 6watts we had on tap that day etc..
Dave
Yay to FH 2.0!
DaveCan, I don't fault you one bit for preferring a simpler build. BLH's are a puzzle, and some people enjoy puzzles more than others. The FH is a pioneering exploratory and educational effort, so it's not about quick, or even best, results. They appeal to a select and stubborn audience.
I think we should give a big thumbs-up to the designers, the builders and yes, even the critics. I raise my glass. *hic*
DaveCan, I don't fault you one bit for preferring a simpler build. BLH's are a puzzle, and some people enjoy puzzles more than others. The FH is a pioneering exploratory and educational effort, so it's not about quick, or even best, results. They appeal to a select and stubborn audience.
I think we should give a big thumbs-up to the designers, the builders and yes, even the critics. I raise my glass. *hic*
As has been mentioned, there's nothing that can't be improved upon. MK2 model is planned, although it'll be a while.
That said, context needs to be remembered -WRT designs for the FE126E on the FH site, then if you want large, Saburo is to be found lurking there. More modestly / practically sized for most people, there's Ron's A126, & then there's the FH, where the design brief was primarily to be extremely compact. Everything's a compromise & needs to be viewed within its own remit. I did work up a slightly larger design myself as it happens, but I shelved it as it didn't fit the compact requirements. Maybe someday.
Don't mistake my liking for BVRs as affecting Dave, Chris & Ron BTW guys (although Ron seems to be heading in that direction -blame me). The Spawn section of the site has become a bit too large for its own good IMO, so we're planning on having a bit of a pruning session at some point soon. To quote Admiral Sir John Fisher, we must be 'ruthless, remorseless & relentless.'
That said, context needs to be remembered -WRT designs for the FE126E on the FH site, then if you want large, Saburo is to be found lurking there. More modestly / practically sized for most people, there's Ron's A126, & then there's the FH, where the design brief was primarily to be extremely compact. Everything's a compromise & needs to be viewed within its own remit. I did work up a slightly larger design myself as it happens, but I shelved it as it didn't fit the compact requirements. Maybe someday.
Don't mistake my liking for BVRs as affecting Dave, Chris & Ron BTW guys (although Ron seems to be heading in that direction -blame me). The Spawn section of the site has become a bit too large for its own good IMO, so we're planning on having a bit of a pruning session at some point soon. To quote Admiral Sir John Fisher, we must be 'ruthless, remorseless & relentless.'
I agree rjbond3rd.. And I'll leave it alone as it just ain't worth putting down the words.. I also really appreciate all that those in the know offer to this and other DIY communities.... But I have to believe that If it was me that had come up with the FH, no matter what level of build I offered, it wouldn't be getting all the kudos that it gets now..
Dave, all 5'11'' of him
Dave, all 5'11'' of him
I think this is starting to get a trifle personal -I'm no moderator, but shall we cool it off a little guys?
Some valid & constructive criticism has been made -that's good. It's open source after all & feedback improves the breed. That said, I can't say that I've noticed the myriad of worshippers, sacrificing large-breasted blonde virgins (crimial waste, if you ask me) & bowing down to the alter of the almighty FH, that seems to have been implied. Indeed, the FH generally seems to womble along quite unobrusively compared to some other DIY boxes. YMMV of course.
As for the BIB, well, I'm known as a fan. It was partly muggins here that was responsible for the resurgance of interest in the thing after all. I'll always have a special affection for it as arguably the all-time great performance per £ / economy of effort box for FR units. But it's not perfect either. We're back to that 'which compromise are you willing to accept' thing.
Some valid & constructive criticism has been made -that's good. It's open source after all & feedback improves the breed. That said, I can't say that I've noticed the myriad of worshippers, sacrificing large-breasted blonde virgins (crimial waste, if you ask me) & bowing down to the alter of the almighty FH, that seems to have been implied. Indeed, the FH generally seems to womble along quite unobrusively compared to some other DIY boxes. YMMV of course.
As for the BIB, well, I'm known as a fan. It was partly muggins here that was responsible for the resurgance of interest in the thing after all. I'll always have a special affection for it as arguably the all-time great performance per £ / economy of effort box for FR units. But it's not perfect either. We're back to that 'which compromise are you willing to accept' thing.
Scottmoose said:
It's too bad that this has all come across that way, it wasn't my intention.. I very well know that each design has it's goals and compromises and totally agree on that point... All I was doing was to state my ''personal opinion" on the FH's I've heard, and that I think they should be taken to another level, I didn't know that thought was already in process... I think we should all be allowed to have opinions based on our perceptions of any design, and mine have been noted already etc.. Perhaps one day I'll come up with a design that rules the world
, but until then ,I will happily enjoy the generosity of good people like Dave and others that are willing to lend a hand. Just cause I don't really agree with the design goals of the FH doesn't mean I have no respect for all those involved etc. So far the only time I've been "Modded" is when someone was asking about the J-low cab and I posted a pic of J-Lows butt (Jennifer Lopez), it got deleted
Dave
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