DaveCan said:BTW, re-reading my post's I hope it doesn't seem like there is a tone going on? It's all in good fun and was written with a smile and in a friendship way.. And being that I have no real solutions as to what the trouble is with JAG's FH I'll just mind my own..
Dave
planet10 said:
sounds like time for another little mini-session, wherein all the important questions will be answered once, and for all
chrisb,
Actually I'm asking about Aiko's for a friend, to whom I recommended them to "sight un-heard,"
who had build BIBs, and wasn't real happy with the results...
Was thinking of modding, simming for a FX120 because he likes that driver.
http://boozhoundlabs.com/
http://boozhoundlabs.com/fx120-bib/
Actually I'm asking about Aiko's for a friend, to whom I recommended them to "sight un-heard,"
who had build BIBs, and wasn't real happy with the results...
Was thinking of modding, simming for a FX120 because he likes that driver.
http://boozhoundlabs.com/
http://boozhoundlabs.com/fx120-bib/
At that time the FH had much more RnD with respects to compression chamber size tweaking, driver tweaking and different stuffing methods etc My point was, what you guys heard was a pair of cabs that were built once and then left alone, and in retrospect I probably should have never brought them over but I was impressed at how they sounded pretty good first try.. The drivers to this day in my BIB cabs have never been out since I first installed them, and your drivers had way more hours on them and mine were fairly fresh un-modded in anyway 108's.. Anyhow I'm not trying to say mine were better, just that for what they were they did a decent job in the conditions they performed that day. Dave
chrisb said:
sounds like time for another little mini-session, wherein all the important questions will be answered once, and for all
That could be fun if it was done with a curtain, and with a room that provided the proper cab location's, and with a set of listener's that were virgin hearer's of all these cab's
I don't expect my cabs would win, rather they wouldn't be perceived as outright Mr. Yuk stickers lol..Dave
serenechaos said:
The FX120 not working well in the BIB is not a big surprise - this driver really doesn't need the horn lift. Its basic parameters are probably close enough to the F120A for modeling/design purposes, and I can tell you that it only took a bit of juggling of enclosure volume and vent tuning to optimize the Fonken enclosure for the F120A. (ask Bud Purvine what he thought of them)
Anyway, until such time as Scott Lindgren might come up with a driver specific design for the FX120, you could consider the Brynn/Gabriel - a bit more involved than a BIB, but still quite a simple build compared to Aiko or any of the Nagaoka style plans.
Just for sake of sanity, this was hardly a freshly built non-modded FH when we listened that day..
http://fullrangedriver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=923
Dave
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://fullrangedriver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=923
Dave
dave's bib
Hi Dave,
If I remember correctly from our emails, the height of your BIB is 60 inches (I believe you did this to raise driver height) which may effectively tune them too low causing some midbass problems. And without corners, the cab should definitely not be judged on this showing.
I am still tweaking/having issues with mine but I think there is some potential. Of course I would like to hear the Aikos!
DaveCan said:The BIB you heard was a first time build and not tweaked in any way to Earth's end like the other cabs we compared them too that day. They were listened to outside and not in the false corners which is not how they are designed and to my ears they still held their own quite admirably to both the FH ,and the A126, especially considering the simplicity of the BIB build, and the fact they were the first cab's I ever made
It seems interesting to me that the BIB gets a bad rap because of how it looks on paper, yet you hear it said time and time again how a perfectly flat nice looking on paper graph ,many times makes for a not so great lifeless listening experience. I'd put the inverted 108 BIB behind a curtain along with the A126 and FH we were listening to that day and I don't beleive the BIB would be shaking on it's platform lol
I think you and Dave should build a BIB like I did and figure out a proper size baffle instead of just winging it like I did with mine ,and then tweak it to Earths end, then put it up against the FH and see what happens
Dave
Hi Dave,
If I remember correctly from our emails, the height of your BIB is 60 inches (I believe you did this to raise driver height) which may effectively tune them too low causing some midbass problems. And without corners, the cab should definitely not be judged on this showing.
I am still tweaking/having issues with mine but I think there is some potential. Of course I would like to hear the Aikos!
Re: dave's bib
Actually it's built to spec with the recommended line length save two things:
#1 I forgot to increase the depth by 1/2'' to take the center divider into account, doh!!
#2 All I did was make the front baffle ,and both cab sides the full 60'' length of the BB ply, the back is to spec, no math, no formula's, was just inspired by the late TC pic of his 108 build. I didn't even bother to make the fancy sides like on his, plus the circle baffle I made is shameful compared to his mastery!! Hey it was my first build except for a few car sub's at the time...
Anyhow I just have been wondering about some of the curious perceptions of the sound, that I see from time to time posted about the BIB since that day, as I thought we were all pretty happy with what we were hearing, and if I remember correct the BIB's were played the majority of that time I was there..
I guess I only commented in the first place on this, because it would be a shame if someone out there reading may end up not wanting to give the BIB a try, based on comments from the build I did mostly
Here's what inspired my cabs
As far as I know, I actually started a stir about doing inverted bib's for the smaller drivers from the cabs I built, at least it would seem that way if you go back in time and read all the posts, go me!! But the true inspiration was just what TC had already done, and as anyone can clearly see, his are amazing!!!...
giantstairs said:
Actually it's built to spec with the recommended line length save two things:
#1 I forgot to increase the depth by 1/2'' to take the center divider into account, doh!!
#2 All I did was make the front baffle ,and both cab sides the full 60'' length of the BB ply, the back is to spec, no math, no formula's, was just inspired by the late TC pic of his 108 build. I didn't even bother to make the fancy sides like on his, plus the circle baffle I made is shameful compared to his mastery!! Hey it was my first build except for a few car sub's at the time...
Anyhow I just have been wondering about some of the curious perceptions of the sound, that I see from time to time posted about the BIB since that day, as I thought we were all pretty happy with what we were hearing, and if I remember correct the BIB's were played the majority of that time I was there..
I guess I only commented in the first place on this, because it would be a shame if someone out there reading may end up not wanting to give the BIB a try, based on comments from the build I did mostly
Here's what inspired my cabs
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
As far as I know, I actually started a stir about doing inverted bib's for the smaller drivers from the cabs I built, at least it would seem that way if you go back in time and read all the posts, go me!! But the true inspiration was just what TC had already done, and as anyone can clearly see, his are amazing!!!...
Re: Re: dave's bib
yeah, i know. i sent you the dims.
#2 It's this extension of the front and sides that seems to me would increase the line length, lowering the tuning about 20hz. I could definitely be wrong about this though.
DaveCan said:
Actually it's built to spec with the recommended line length save two things:
#1 I forgot to increase the depth by 1/2'' to take the center divider into account, doh!!
#2 All I did was make the front baffle ,and both cab sides the full 60'' length of the BB ply, the back is to spec, no math, no formula's, was just inspired by the late TC pic of his 108 build. I didn't even bother to make the fancy sides like on his, plus the circle baffle I made is shameful compared to his mastery!! Hey it was my first build except for a few car sub's at the time...
Anyhow I just have been wondering about some of the curious perceptions of the sound, that I see from time to time posted about the BIB since that day, as I thought we were all pretty happy with what we were hearing, and if I remember correct the BIB's were played the majority of that time I was there..
I guess I only commented in the first place on this, because it would be a shame if someone out there reading may end up not wanting to give the BIB a try, based on comments from the build I did mostly
Dave
yeah, i know. i sent you the dims.
#2 It's this extension of the front and sides that seems to me would increase the line length, lowering the tuning about 20hz. I could definitely be wrong about this though.
Oh ya you did give me the dims All the extended front and sides did in my mind (which is admittedly not that complex : ) was to make a stand for the cabs to downfire, but it does enclose the exit at the front and sides which no doubt does some changes etc.. Probably I should have made the sides like what TC did on his cabs and I guess I still could easy enough one day..
Sorry for taking this thread off topic from my postings..
Seacrest out
Dave
All the extended front and sides did in my mind (which is admittedly not that complex : ) was to make a stand for the cabs to downfire, but it does enclose the exit at the front and sides which no doubt does some changes etc.. Probably I should have made the sides like what TC did on his cabs and I guess I still could easy enough one day.. Sorry for taking this thread off topic from my postings..
Seacrest out
Dave
DaveCan said:Oh ya you did give me the dims
Dave
I'm curious of the differences, if any, as well because I later built down firing double folded BIBs and while they couple to the room much better, the drivers are way too low. I wish I had just flipped over the original, put it on adjustable spikes, and moved the driver up to approx .4 line length, as is the current thinking. Oh well.
No problems here anymore... didn't I mention that? I guess not.
You were right though, the speakers NEED to be 1.5 or more feet away from the corner and side wall - in which position they only go down to about 100 hz - and need to be either lifted a few inches or tilted back (as I do) to get on axis or there's not much highs. I've also found that toeing in so that the drivers cross a couple of feet ahead of the listening spot also eliminates the need for suprabaffle - no notch under 1khz to fill in anymore, in my case at least. The EXACT positioning of the little horns AND adding a bunch of steepness to the sub xo slope (and 1 band of parametric eq on the sub only) fixed most if not all of my problems.
VERY careful positioning can eliminate one of the lower frequency bumps (the one at 110 or the one at 230 but I haven't found a spot to flatten them both). Using the positioning to flatten the 230 hz bump and using the xo to flatten the lower one, I end up with quite flat (maybe +/- 6db IN ROOM - not too bad at all) with no eq at all on the little horns. The sub still needs that nasty 50 hz bump parametrically eq'ed though.
Still not perfect yet but not too far off from perfect either, considering the room has no sound treatments at all. If time permits I might make a graph to show this setup, but I'm just guessing it will say +/- 6db from 20 hz to 20 khz IN ROOM.
Only finishing and tweaking left on these.
jag:
I think you'll soon get to the point where the room's dimensions and untreated acoustic properties will swamp any efforts to solve the issues with any type of EQ or placement.
There are as many "experts" in the field of room treatment as in DIY speaker design, with a similar range of real and imagined expertise. (I herein claim none ) .
With a speaker like the Frugel, or any other rear mouth horn (Ron Clarke's Austin series, Buschhorns, Hornshoppe Model 1, etc) you're stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of using the corners to complete the final expansion of the "virtual" horn mouth, and the need to provide treatment for the lower frequencies in a smaller room, which I have often seen includes placing traps in the corners.
Something I found that works quite well in the upstairs living room (now commandeered by mrs B), is to place the speakers similar to the position described in this article:
http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm
Indeed, the pair in this system are Buschhorn MKI with FE108ES, and the speakers are placed at approx 45deg angle to each wall, with the corner between. Think of an isosceles triangle with the base diagonal to the side walls, with your "sweet spot" directly facing into the corner. The system sounds fin (considering the cheap Sony receiver and CD carousel), and with some plants and other furniture, the little horns almost visually disappear.
Is it possible to start with a clean slate as far as room layout is concerned? That is, remove all the furnishings, play with system placement, and then add furniture 'til it starts sounding wrong again, then remove the last piece of furniture. If there is a wife / girl friend to contend with, these experiments are often best accomplished with a "honey, is it time to paint this room out / change the carpet? Why don't you visit your sister/mom for a week, and I'll take care of it".
"I finished late one night and wanted to listen to some tunes, so I just threw it together, and guess what..."
it's worked for me
I think you'll soon get to the point where the room's dimensions and untreated acoustic properties will swamp any efforts to solve the issues with any type of EQ or placement.
There are as many "experts" in the field of room treatment as in DIY speaker design, with a similar range of real and imagined expertise. (I herein claim none ) .
With a speaker like the Frugel, or any other rear mouth horn (Ron Clarke's Austin series, Buschhorns, Hornshoppe Model 1, etc) you're stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of using the corners to complete the final expansion of the "virtual" horn mouth, and the need to provide treatment for the lower frequencies in a smaller room, which I have often seen includes placing traps in the corners.
Something I found that works quite well in the upstairs living room (now commandeered by mrs B), is to place the speakers similar to the position described in this article:
http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm
Indeed, the pair in this system are Buschhorn MKI with FE108ES, and the speakers are placed at approx 45deg angle to each wall, with the corner between. Think of an isosceles triangle with the base diagonal to the side walls, with your "sweet spot" directly facing into the corner. The system sounds fin (considering the cheap Sony receiver and CD carousel), and with some plants and other furniture, the little horns almost visually disappear.
Is it possible to start with a clean slate as far as room layout is concerned? That is, remove all the furnishings, play with system placement, and then add furniture 'til it starts sounding wrong again, then remove the last piece of furniture. If there is a wife / girl friend to contend with, these experiments are often best accomplished with a "honey, is it time to paint this room out / change the carpet? Why don't you visit your sister/mom for a week, and I'll take care of it".
"I finished late one night and wanted to listen to some tunes, so I just threw it together, and guess what..."
it's worked for me
I know about that paper and haven't tried it yet but someday I will. But I am pretty satisfied with the little horns at this point. It's a sad coincidence that my room modes match and accentuate the horn harmonics, but if I can make them sound good in even this room then they might even be suitable as gifts still, as intended, with instructions as simple as:
Place the speakers in corners (if available, if not ymmv) but no closer than 1.5 feet to the side or back wall. XO at 120 hz. Toe in so the speakers cross in front of the listening position. Listen and experiment with exact positioning and toe in until female vocals sound almost "right". And finally, eq to taste.
Basically all you need to do is damp the horn action down to nothing and xo high and with a tiny bit of eq this speaker sounds like a million bucks even in a room that isn't helping. Not how I was planning to use it but it works and guarantees it will reach thermal limit before xmax. And I would expect even better performance in almost any other room. Actually, since I've decided that I like them, there's a pretty good chance I won't be "wasting" them on this room for long.
Place the speakers in corners (if available, if not ymmv) but no closer than 1.5 feet to the side or back wall. XO at 120 hz. Toe in so the speakers cross in front of the listening position. Listen and experiment with exact positioning and toe in until female vocals sound almost "right". And finally, eq to taste.
Basically all you need to do is damp the horn action down to nothing and xo high and with a tiny bit of eq this speaker sounds like a million bucks even in a room that isn't helping. Not how I was planning to use it but it works and guarantees it will reach thermal limit before xmax. And I would expect even better performance in almost any other room. Actually, since I've decided that I like them, there's a pretty good chance I won't be "wasting" them on this room for long.
Another one I like is George Cardas's article on the subject: http://www.cardas.com/pdf/roomsetup.pdf
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