Greets!
FWIW, since over damping to tame a 'boomy' horn can attenuate its 'attack' too much IMO, I would 'gap' (space) the driver away from its mounting as required to bleed off the excess pressure and if it audibly 'pulsed', used damping material in this new 'vent'. Unfortunately, if the latter is required it can be a tedious chore finding the right gap/density balance by ear, or at least it was for me........
As always though, YMMV.
GM
FWIW, since over damping to tame a 'boomy' horn can attenuate its 'attack' too much IMO, I would 'gap' (space) the driver away from its mounting as required to bleed off the excess pressure and if it audibly 'pulsed', used damping material in this new 'vent'. Unfortunately, if the latter is required it can be a tedious chore finding the right gap/density balance by ear, or at least it was for me........
As always though, YMMV.
GM
Greets!
Got the connection problems solved a few weeks ago when the phone company found that they had wired up the new improved junction box wrong that had been installed a couple of years ago to solve my old dial-up problems, which while it had helped, it would have worked a bunch better had it been done right the first time.
The real *&^%$! is that they were supposed to come the day I received the DSL kit and test/verify the wiring, and while their paperwork says they did, it was obvious from watching it be re-wired that no one had been here. The previous installer hadn't even used the correct wire! It's working like a 'champ' now.
Anyway, around the time I got the DSL 'present' I started getting 'hit' with a lot of time intensive personal stuff that I couldn't/can't put off and every time I start to 'see daylight', it turns out to be generated by your referenced flame-thrower, so the old adage of 'when it rains, it pours' is ~controlling my life right now and will keep me from contributing much other than what I can repeat by rote during the few 'breaks' I get. At least none of it is life threatening to me AFAIK on the short term, though I have a couple of adult life-long friends who can't say the same. Emergency quadruple bypasses on folks over 70 can cause lots of seemingly unrelated complications.
Considering that they have led much healthier eating life-styles than me for all those decades has me wondering if/when my time 'in the saddle' is coming..........
GM
Got the connection problems solved a few weeks ago when the phone company found that they had wired up the new improved junction box wrong that had been installed a couple of years ago to solve my old dial-up problems, which while it had helped, it would have worked a bunch better had it been done right the first time.
The real *&^%$! is that they were supposed to come the day I received the DSL kit and test/verify the wiring, and while their paperwork says they did, it was obvious from watching it be re-wired that no one had been here. The previous installer hadn't even used the correct wire! It's working like a 'champ' now.
Anyway, around the time I got the DSL 'present' I started getting 'hit' with a lot of time intensive personal stuff that I couldn't/can't put off and every time I start to 'see daylight', it turns out to be generated by your referenced flame-thrower, so the old adage of 'when it rains, it pours' is ~controlling my life right now and will keep me from contributing much other than what I can repeat by rote during the few 'breaks' I get. At least none of it is life threatening to me AFAIK on the short term, though I have a couple of adult life-long friends who can't say the same.
Emergency quadruple bypasses on folks over 70 can cause lots of seemingly unrelated complications. Considering that they have led much healthier eating life-styles than me for all those decades has me wondering if/when my time 'in the saddle' is coming..........
GM
Hell! Bad. Quad bypass is not good at all. Hope they're recovering properly though.
FWIW, I'm a bit of a cynic about some supposedly 'healthy' lifestyles. There's a place in France where people have a diet far higher in saturated fats than anywhere else in Europe. Interestingly, they have the lowest rate of heart-problems of anywhere in Europe too.
Scott
FWIW, I'm a bit of a cynic about some supposedly 'healthy' lifestyles. There's a place in France where people have a diet far higher in saturated fats than anywhere else in Europe. Interestingly, they have the lowest rate of heart-problems of anywhere in Europe too.
Scott
GM said:Greets!
Emergency quadruple bypasses on folks over 70 can cause lots of seemingly unrelated complications.
Considering that they have led much healthier eating life-styles than me for all those decades has me wondering if/when my time 'in the saddle' is coming..........
GM
GM,
My father had a quad bypass and an aortic valve replaced at 75, complications were none at all, and it has greatly improved his energy level and overall quality of life. I hope your friends experience the same benefits.
My younger brother has also had a quad bypass, right around his 40th birthday. I figure it's only a matter of time for me, too!
Bill
Scottmoose said:
Greets!
Not really, both by-pass surgeries were allegedly 'textbook', but I'm told both have developed life threatening situations, one with an aortic aneurism and the other had to be rushed backed to intensive care a few days after returning home with some so far undisclosed 'complications'.
Me too, I first read about both the contrary French and healthful 'Mediterranean' diets in a '60s Playboy article that was predominantly about the healthy benefits of certain wines IIRC. I've been around long enough and known enough folks of all age ranges that it doesn't take a doctor's Ph.D. to come to the conclusion that all else being equal, the old adage 'it's in the blood' (genetic) is by far the dominant factor, though of course there's all manner of ways we can potentially damage it with many and varied toxic chemicals.
Both come from a long blood-line of relatively short lived males and were heavy smokers (unfiltered) from their early teens to their 60s before quitting to boot, so good eating habits or not, frankly, I'm surprised they're still 'kicking'.
GM
Listening to midgets
I built the Standard Fostex “Back Loaded Horn + Bass Reflex Hybrid Enclosures” for my FE126’s a while ago. Place directly on the floor the drives are only 20” off the ground.
So it’s like listening to a room full of very talented midgets (no disrespect to any vertically challenge musicians reading this – PC man!). Now my xmas/new year project must be Dave’s Frugels but this only raises the drive to say 30”. Will this raise Van the Man to the giant he really is????
I built the Standard Fostex “Back Loaded Horn + Bass Reflex Hybrid Enclosures” for my FE126’s a while ago. Place directly on the floor the drives are only 20” off the ground.
So it’s like listening to a room full of very talented midgets (no disrespect to any vertically challenge musicians reading this – PC man!). Now my xmas/new year project must be Dave’s Frugels but this only raises the drive to say 30”. Will this raise Van the Man to the giant he really is????
RE: Hollow sound.
problem solved. I had used a wooden plug to cover the additional volume directly behind the driver. Effectively placing a wood wall for sound to bounce off back at the driver.
The closeness of this " plug " created this effect. I also opened up the back area and stuffed the entry to the additional volume tight as well as covered it with a little light dacron.
the bass was enhanced without a negative effect and the wooden sound that was only a small annoyance for me has completely disappeared.
over the last couple days I have listened to them more than the last month and they are getting daily use.
From speaking tapes to music they cover it. I always had to use an EQ so my wife could listen to her tapes and strangely enough I don't have to do anything now.
The spot means that only one has a corner and the other backs a big open space over my stairs but it seems to work..
thanks for everyones help
Gex
problem solved. I had used a wooden plug to cover the additional volume directly behind the driver. Effectively placing a wood wall for sound to bounce off back at the driver.
The closeness of this " plug " created this effect. I also opened up the back area and stuffed the entry to the additional volume tight as well as covered it with a little light dacron.
the bass was enhanced without a negative effect and the wooden sound that was only a small annoyance for me has completely disappeared.
over the last couple days I have listened to them more than the last month and they are getting daily use.
From speaking tapes to music they cover it. I always had to use an EQ so my wife could listen to her tapes and strangely enough I don't have to do anything now.
The spot means that only one has a corner and the other backs a big open space over my stairs but it seems to work..
thanks for everyones help
Gex
hello all!
i have a problem with my "test"-frugels. cheap mdf, ugly looking, woodworking is not my strength. but the sound has very much potential.
i'm using the 108es, fully broken in, the small cc for now and a circular 30cm supra baffle. i tried various dimensions, and 30cm is the best imho. the frugels are standing in corners. The romm they are standing in right now is not very big, about 18qm. the bass is good, approximately 70hz, has astonishing speed and dynamics. in my big room, 9m x 10m x 3,5 m, the bass is very weak. not that i expected bass in this room.
right now, i am using felt on the driver magnet and a small piece of polyfill in the cc. initially, i had a kind of a “hollow sound” or a “hollow midrange coloration” with my frugels i could hear with some male voices. for example bruce springsteen or herbert groenemeyer. don’t know if it the same hollow sound gexter is talking about. after lining the last 50% or so of the horn path with thin cork, it was gone. it has no influence on the bass. the hint with the cork comes from audio-resolution. look here http://www.audio-resolution.com/zhorn/herukamain.html
i can only compare the 108es-frugels to the 166e in ron’s austin. both are the only fullrange drivers i have ever had. the austin has deeper and stronger bass and the sound is more relaxed, the 166e is a nice driver, but the frugels are simply imaging and soundstage champions. they simply disappear. very nice. the austin is already very good in this area, no 2way speaker i have ever heard could do this better, but the 108es-frugel is exceptionally. and they can play loud, and it all comes form such a small driver.
i really like the 108es-frugels very much. but… i have one big problem. the sound has no weight, the instruments and voices do not have a body. i am not talking about a lack of bass. the bass is, as i have already said, fine in my small room. but somehow the voices sound small and not lifelike.
take norah jones song “painter song” for example, it’s the 10 track on her debut cd “come away with me”, where there is only a guitar and her voice at the beginning. comparing the frugels to the austins or my 2way speaker with a 6.5” midwoofer, the voice lacks some energy in the frequency range below 600hz or so.
i tried different cc volumens, different baffles, different stuffing, placement, different rooms, different amps. i even used my equalizer. but there was nothing I could do to give norah jones voice some body and weight.
is this a problem of the frugels or of the 108es? or is this a general problem of small fullrange drivers?
I like the 108es in the frugels very much, but this problem kills very often all the fun.
regards
mike
i have a problem with my "test"-frugels. cheap mdf, ugly looking, woodworking is not my strength. but the sound has very much potential.
i'm using the 108es, fully broken in, the small cc for now and a circular 30cm supra baffle. i tried various dimensions, and 30cm is the best imho. the frugels are standing in corners. The romm they are standing in right now is not very big, about 18qm. the bass is good, approximately 70hz, has astonishing speed and dynamics. in my big room, 9m x 10m x 3,5 m, the bass is very weak. not that i expected bass in this room
. right now, i am using felt on the driver magnet and a small piece of polyfill in the cc. initially, i had a kind of a “hollow sound” or a “hollow midrange coloration” with my frugels i could hear with some male voices. for example bruce springsteen or herbert groenemeyer. don’t know if it the same hollow sound gexter is talking about. after lining the last 50% or so of the horn path with thin cork, it was gone. it has no influence on the bass. the hint with the cork comes from audio-resolution. look here http://www.audio-resolution.com/zhorn/herukamain.html
i can only compare the 108es-frugels to the 166e in ron’s austin. both are the only fullrange drivers i have ever had. the austin has deeper and stronger bass and the sound is more relaxed, the 166e is a nice driver, but the frugels are simply imaging and soundstage champions. they simply disappear. very nice. the austin is already very good in this area, no 2way speaker i have ever heard could do this better, but the 108es-frugel is exceptionally. and they can play loud, and it all comes form such a small driver
. i really like the 108es-frugels very much. but… i have one big problem. the sound has no weight, the instruments and voices do not have a body. i am not talking about a lack of bass. the bass is, as i have already said, fine in my small room. but somehow the voices sound small and not lifelike.
take norah jones song “painter song” for example, it’s the 10 track on her debut cd “come away with me”, where there is only a guitar and her voice at the beginning. comparing the frugels to the austins or my 2way speaker with a 6.5” midwoofer, the voice lacks some energy in the frequency range below 600hz or so.
i tried different cc volumens, different baffles, different stuffing, placement, different rooms, different amps. i even used my equalizer. but there was nothing I could do to give norah jones voice some body and weight
.is this a problem of the frugels or of the 108es? or is this a general problem of small fullrange drivers?
I like the 108es in the frugels very much, but this problem kills very often all the fun
. regards
mike
Re: Re: How many...
Good, almost halfway there
Depending on what you're comparing them to (or expecting), yes the 108Sigmas in any of the smaller BLH could very well lack the weight, slam, balls, impact (whatever your favorite term) of a larger driver.
In the Fostex series for example, to my taste, the FE126 will do simultaneously more and less in a similarly designed enclosure. i.e. more SPL and bass extension, less textural detail and articulation from mid-bass through upper mids.
FWIW, the MDF could be killing a lot of the dynamics and low level detail at which the 108 and FrugelHorn excel.
The series of prototypes and parallel designs during Dave's development process were "voiced" with Baltic Birch plywood. Compared to many MLTLs, it's a more complicated and time consuming build, but the actual quantity of material consumed is not at all excessive - with a careful plan, an entire pair of FH can be cut from a single 5x5' sheet of BB (our next run will be with 15mm, to optimize the CNC machining time and material breakout)
LilMik said:
Good, almost halfway there
Depending on what you're comparing them to (or expecting), yes the 108Sigmas in any of the smaller BLH could very well lack the weight, slam, balls, impact (whatever your favorite term) of a larger driver.
In the Fostex series for example, to my taste, the FE126 will do simultaneously more and less in a similarly designed enclosure. i.e. more SPL and bass extension, less textural detail and articulation from mid-bass through upper mids.
FWIW, the MDF could be killing a lot of the dynamics and low level detail at which the 108 and FrugelHorn excel.
The series of prototypes and parallel designs during Dave's development process were "voiced" with Baltic Birch plywood. Compared to many MLTLs, it's a more complicated and time consuming build, but the actual quantity of material consumed is not at all excessive - with a careful plan, an entire pair of FH can be cut from a single 5x5' sheet of BB (our next run will be with 15mm, to optimize the CNC machining time and material breakout)
That is optimistic...
At the very best you are only a fraction of the way there. Part of the problem bith running in a set of driver like these (have done this myself) is the fact that they are so efficient. When installed in a horn cabinet this problem is further agrivated. To really run these drivers in requires exactly what they dont get in a horn cabinet, excerssion. Placing the cabinets face to face as close as they will go then wiring the two cabinets out of phase with each other (to cancel the output you hear) then feeding them inter channel noise from a receiver and cover them with a bunch of old heavy blankets. Turn up the volume and let simmer as long as you can. The last set of Fe108 back horn loaded cabinets were a year or more in daily use befor the fellow I built them for called me to say that they were starting to make bass better than he had ever imagined that they could. I would be easier to run them in with a small box rather than a horn. Be willing to take the time they need and they will reward you. Don't expect sismic bass as they will not do that but they can and will provide a solid foundation and they can be blended with good stereo subwoofers to finish off what they started. Good luck and have a happy and safe Christmas time. Best regards Moray James.
At the very best you are only a fraction of the way there. Part of the problem bith running in a set of driver like these (have done this myself) is the fact that they are so efficient. When installed in a horn cabinet this problem is further agrivated. To really run these drivers in requires exactly what they dont get in a horn cabinet, excerssion. Placing the cabinets face to face as close as they will go then wiring the two cabinets out of phase with each other (to cancel the output you hear) then feeding them inter channel noise from a receiver and cover them with a bunch of old heavy blankets. Turn up the volume and let simmer as long as you can. The last set of Fe108 back horn loaded cabinets were a year or more in daily use befor the fellow I built them for called me to say that they were starting to make bass better than he had ever imagined that they could. I would be easier to run them in with a small box rather than a horn. Be willing to take the time they need and they will reward you. Don't expect sismic bass as they will not do that but they can and will provide a solid foundation and they can be blended with good stereo subwoofers to finish off what they started. Good luck and have a happy and safe Christmas time. Best regards Moray James.
MJ speaks words of wisdom. Thrash the drivers for a while with bass-heavy material, preferably wired and mounted as he suggests, in a coupel of quick, samm sealed boxes knocked up from some cheap sheet material. I'm not usuallya big believer in break in, but for drivers horn loaded, it's not so easy to get them to Xmax or beyond to ge the suspension nicely loosened up.
Hello all,
I'm wondering if you think it's suitable to use the
FH in a corner, but where the 'back wall' is
actually a window with drapes in front of it.
I'm interested in the FH because of its small
size and the possible availability of a cabinet
flat pack. (I have no woodworking abilities.)
I also have a pair of FE108Es drivers.
Thanks,
Dennis
I'm wondering if you think it's suitable to use the
FH in a corner, but where the 'back wall' is
actually a window with drapes in front of it.
I'm interested in the FH because of its small
size and the possible availability of a cabinet
flat pack. (I have no woodworking abilities.)
I also have a pair of FE108Es drivers.
Thanks,
Dennis
hello all!
thx for your answers. the lack of weight is not subtlety. i am not sure if more burning in will help, but i can try it.
l already thought that mdf might be a problem, because plywood is more lively, something that might help in the range below 600hz, but scottmoose mentioned that he does use mdf, too. again, i am not sure if mdf will help enough.
yesterday evening i bought the 126e. since yesterday the fostex burns in. i will try it in a few days. ed schilling says that the 126e does not need burn in time at all.
i want to share with you a few observations i made.
i burned a few test cd’s with a steep high pass at 150 Hz. no bass at all, but to my surprise it did not affect the voices as much as i thought. in fact, Jewels voice for example sounds almost the same. also Norah Jones voice did not change that much. the same is true for George Michael and Herbert Groenemeyer (a german artist). again, using my burned cd’s to compare the 108es/frugel to ron’s 166e/austin or to my seas/vifa 2way speaker with a 6,5” woofer, i can easily hear that the 108es lacks some weight in the range below 600hz or so, but the problem is not the bass below 150hz.
after searching a bit, i found this review at 6moons.com http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/cornu/cornu.html
it is a review of the “Cornu Compact Spiralhorn” with the Fe108ES as the driver. the author is Kari Nevalainen. here is a quote:
“The sound was compact also in a literal sense. Piano in a concerto could take on the tinkling sound of a children's piano and a similar 'narrowing' took place with some violin recordings. I know that friends of tiny wide bandwidth drivers fiercely disagree with me but presenting instruments with sufficient body and timbral maturity including their natural or semi-natural size is one area in which I doubt that a four-inch driver can achieve the same success as, say, 8 to 15-inch drivers are able to. But this is only my speculation.”
i think this is what i am talking about. i am not alone. sometimes the sound does not have a body, not enough weight. for me, this is especially obvious when i am listening to voices.
regards
mike
thx for your answers. the lack of weight is not subtlety. i am not sure if more burning in will help, but i can try it.
l already thought that mdf might be a problem, because plywood is more lively, something that might help in the range below 600hz, but scottmoose mentioned that he does use mdf, too. again, i am not sure if mdf will help enough.
yesterday evening i bought the 126e. since yesterday the fostex burns in. i will try it in a few days. ed schilling says that the 126e does not need burn in time at all.
i want to share with you a few observations i made.
i burned a few test cd’s with a steep high pass at 150 Hz. no bass at all, but to my surprise it did not affect the voices as much as i thought. in fact, Jewels voice for example sounds almost the same. also Norah Jones voice did not change that much. the same is true for George Michael and Herbert Groenemeyer (a german artist). again, using my burned cd’s to compare the 108es/frugel to ron’s 166e/austin or to my seas/vifa 2way speaker with a 6,5” woofer, i can easily hear that the 108es lacks some weight in the range below 600hz or so, but the problem is not the bass below 150hz.
after searching a bit, i found this review at 6moons.com http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/cornu/cornu.html
it is a review of the “Cornu Compact Spiralhorn” with the Fe108ES as the driver. the author is Kari Nevalainen. here is a quote:
“The sound was compact also in a literal sense. Piano in a concerto could take on the tinkling sound of a children's piano and a similar 'narrowing' took place with some violin recordings. I know that friends of tiny wide bandwidth drivers fiercely disagree with me but presenting instruments with sufficient body and timbral maturity including their natural or semi-natural size is one area in which I doubt that a four-inch driver can achieve the same success as, say, 8 to 15-inch drivers are able to. But this is only my speculation.”
i think this is what i am talking about. i am not alone
. sometimes the sound does not have a body, not enough weight. for me, this is especially obvious when i am listening to voices. regards
mike
Greets!
I'm not familiar with this horn's design, but just 'running the numbers' for a theoretically ideal horn and looking at the Fostex literature, little wonder this 'tweeter' has no mids 'weight' since the diaphragm isn't designed to ever be 'broken in' as it's generally defined here, and with a near 500 Hz mass corner/tweeter length Xmax there's not much point in driving the suspension hard to loosen it up since its specs calc a ridiculously small filter chamber and throat, ergo a very long, slow expanding horn to load it all the way out to ~500 Hz. Factor in that the motor is so large it acts as a phase plug, dialing in this driver in a BLH is no trivial pursuit IMO.
As always though, YMMV.
Anyway, working with what you have, it sounds like a BSC ckt. is called for to tonally balance it out.
GM
I'm not familiar with this horn's design, but just 'running the numbers' for a theoretically ideal horn and looking at the Fostex literature, little wonder this 'tweeter' has no mids 'weight' since the diaphragm isn't designed to ever be 'broken in' as it's generally defined here, and with a near 500 Hz mass corner/tweeter length Xmax there's not much point in driving the suspension hard to loosen it up since its specs calc a ridiculously small filter chamber and throat, ergo a very long, slow expanding horn to load it all the way out to ~500 Hz. Factor in that the motor is so large it acts as a phase plug, dialing in this driver in a BLH is no trivial pursuit IMO.
As always though, YMMV.
Anyway, working with what you have, it sounds like a BSC ckt. is called for to tonally balance it out.
GM
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