Yes, I grepped for your speaker design and found the thread. Cool stuff. I have never dabbled in horns, so it seems all very mysterious to me.
People crib about the 2x4 having worse AD/ DA pieces than the 2x8. Did you feel any issue with those things? And I've also heard a lot of complaints that the analog output of the 2x4 is too low in gain to drive many amplifiers hard, specially when you are using active equalisation at line level and thus cutting the signal levels in various freq ranges. Some chaps are actually using a 2x or 3x analog gain stage at the output of the 2x4. Did you face any challenges with gain?
My class D amps have 26dB gain setting and that seems sufficient for the 2v max output of the 2x4. I am able to drive my amps to clipping but can see that some amps with lower input gain may have issues. I am good with the sound quality of the ADC and DAC stages - I can't measure a difference between them and no miniDSP in the chain. My ears like them. Many people feel you are best off using a 2x8 nanoDIGI with all digital in and out and dedicated boutique DAC's at the output.
You can always spend more for that extra bit of resolution or detail etc. IMO, the speakers are the limiting bottleneck. Until I have speakers that have SNR greater than 98dB and HD less than -80dB I won't worry. With the Trynergy the full range is so sensitive (108dB) that it does not take much signal to drive the amp.
I'm sure one day I will try a fancy DAC and say why did I wait so long?
If you never tried a Synergy - listen to a well setup one and the sound is magical. You may never like open faced speakers as much again.
You can always spend more for that extra bit of resolution or detail etc. IMO, the speakers are the limiting bottleneck. Until I have speakers that have SNR greater than 98dB and HD less than -80dB I won't worry. With the Trynergy the full range is so sensitive (108dB) that it does not take much signal to drive the amp.
I'm sure one day I will try a fancy DAC and say why did I wait so long?
If you never tried a Synergy - listen to a well setup one and the sound is magical. You may never like open faced speakers as much again.
Good to know that gain is not causing a problem for you.
About the DAC/ADC quality, I fully agree that if you do not hear any audible problem, then you should forget about the electronics and focus on the speakers. I find it interesting to see how people fight about CD player "sound" and DAC quality when their speaker drivers are adding half a percent of harmonic distortion to everything they hear.
Will wait for an opportunity to hear good horns.
About the DAC/ADC quality, I fully agree that if you do not hear any audible problem, then you should forget about the electronics and focus on the speakers. I find it interesting to see how people fight about CD player "sound" and DAC quality when their speaker drivers are adding half a percent of harmonic distortion to everything they hear.
Will wait for an opportunity to hear good horns.
I just remembered -- my good friend George-da from Bangalore has built a pair of two-way horns with some vintage drivers. I will definitely get to hear them in a few months, whenever I make my next trip to Bangalore! Good!Will wait for an opportunity to hear good horns.
I like your DIY speaker and your blog very much. However, your blog website seems down.
Learnings from the Darbari
I've had 5+ years of listening to the Darbari, and a few other systems in between. During that time, I've heard some really high-end (defined by price) systems. Some of them sounded dull; one sounded really good, interesting, natural, dynamic. This one had PMC 3-way stand-mount passive studio monitors with 12" woofers, 3" proprietary PMC dome midranges and 1" dome tweeters. The amps were a deluxe pre-power solid-state combo from Luxman. My Darbari, in the meanwhile, has found a new home, in Kottayam, Kerala, and will shift there soon.
Here are my learnings in no particular order:
On the cards is now an experimental 4-way passive design, purely as an experiment, with physically stepped, time-aligned tweeter and upper-mid the way Troels Gravesen keeps doing. And a 3-way passive, and then active, with 12", 5" and 1" SB Acoustics Satori drivers. Let's see how they turn out. Will keep you guys posted.
Am also getting into some amp building with the PeeCeeBee v4H Rev 1 modules (here on diyaudio). Very active, sharp designer. Specs to die for -- we used to lust after such clean performance and high open loop gain 10 years ago. Would have definitely liked to try out the Greg Ball GBA 150, but he's walked away from audio, and I don't know how good the Chinese PCB designer's Jims Audio's kits are. The (expensive by DIY standards) Holton amp modules are there too, with 1 double-die MOSFET per rail. May try a pair of Rod Elliott P101 too. (I wish Rod would invest in some good measurement gear and do more detailed measurements of his amps.) I am interested in getting into a space with the amp modules where I operate them with 40V transformer secondaries (+/-56V DC rails). Will I need so much power per amp in a 3-way active design? Don't know. But I want to try and not have any doubts about amp power and cleanness in my next build. I am certain 200W won't go amiss for woofers, with LT being needed many a times.
I have also discovered some brilliant and talented friends who can help with amp chassis locally. I used to regret not having any Modushop quality of chassis maker in India -- I no longer feel that at all. I am now getting top quality amp chassis work done with 10mm front plates, lovely heatsinks of various sections, CNC cutouts for connectors etc, all locally. What a find! Torotrans in Pune is giving me toroids to order -- I've just placed an order for one with 4 secondaries of 24V, 10A each, to power two channels of a Modulus-686 build -- the xfmr will have an electrostatic shield too. If I can get such transformers to order, I can build dual-mono or multi-way mono amps (common transformer, completely separate secondary windings per amp) as per my wish. Will write about my amp related explorations later, in some other thread.
Wish me luck.
I've had 5+ years of listening to the Darbari, and a few other systems in between. During that time, I've heard some really high-end (defined by price) systems. Some of them sounded dull; one sounded really good, interesting, natural, dynamic. This one had PMC 3-way stand-mount passive studio monitors with 12" woofers, 3" proprietary PMC dome midranges and 1" dome tweeters. The amps were a deluxe pre-power solid-state combo from Luxman. My Darbari, in the meanwhile, has found a new home, in Kottayam, Kerala, and will shift there soon.
Here are my learnings in no particular order:
- A 3-way design is fundamental, a 4-way may sometimes be attempted, but a 2-way is a compromise. This was one of the fundamental premises on which the Darbari was built, and has been strengthened. I still build 2-way systems, for friends, for their simplicity. 3-ways do not have to be very big -- one can do the classic 8" - 4" - 1" configuration. What I really want to play with is the behaviour of a dedicated midrange, a driver which cannot do bass even if it tried.
- Designing a 3-way or more passive xo is not easy -- I'm still learning. But I've jumped in with both feet and bought a set of inexpensive drivers to build a 4-way with. Will report how it goes.
- New software tools have come into my life since the Darbari, and are in a large way responsible for enabling my further experiments. These are ARTA for measurements, and VituixCAD for crossover modelling. I continue to stick with Unibox for box modelling. I replaced my ancient Creative SoundBlaster USB interface with a much better Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. My mic, since the Darbari days, has been a Dayton measurement mic with XLR output, calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs. I'm all set. I definitely would not have been able to attempt the kind of designs I am doing now, if I didn't have ARTA and VituixCAD.
- Higher power amps are A Good Thing (tm). If one is talking solid state Class B, I'm beginning to narrow down on amps which have 2 or more OPS devices per rail. I am no longer going to be happy (for myself) with the lovely Self Blameless or the Rod Elliott P3A. (These are great amps to give to friends who are getting into good audio systems, though. I love them. Don't want to use them any more for my systems.)
- The quality of electronics is far less of an issue than the quality of speakers. My MiniDSP 4x10HD is a $500 item which has eight DACs among other things. Price-wise, this probably means each DAC costs $20 or some such figure. But they measure very well (TomChr had published some measurements) and in my experience they are absolutely lovely for my speaker projects.
- The need for amps is a real pain in active multi-way. One needs to solve this problem once and for all. I am planning to build multi-way plate amps using DIY amp kits, and using them wherever I need to.
- Don't keep too low a Q for the woofer. You get amazingly clean bass, agreed. (People have been stunned at how much information they hear in the lowest bass of the Darbari.) But it also weakens the bass a bit. From next time onwards, I don't think I'll go below 0.6, maybe not below 0.63 or so.
- Stick to sealed bass. I'll never do bass reflex bass again for myself.
- Big learning from my friend with the PMC-Luxman setup: you need a listening environment with a low noise floor. This is a big requirement on my to-do list now. Many of you do not have a clue about what I'm saying here -- you live in homes where the ambient noise is low to begin with. I live in the 7th floor of a high-rise which fronts a busy 120-foot-wide road, which carries the noisiest elements of Indian traffic: autorickshaws with disconnected mufflers, and heavy trucks and buses. I guess a lot of Bombayite friends are in the same boat. This really limits what I can experience from my music system. Currently, I have begun to listen to music only after 11 PM at night.
On the cards is now an experimental 4-way passive design, purely as an experiment, with physically stepped, time-aligned tweeter and upper-mid the way Troels Gravesen keeps doing. And a 3-way passive, and then active, with 12", 5" and 1" SB Acoustics Satori drivers. Let's see how they turn out. Will keep you guys posted.
Am also getting into some amp building with the PeeCeeBee v4H Rev 1 modules (here on diyaudio). Very active, sharp designer. Specs to die for -- we used to lust after such clean performance and high open loop gain 10 years ago. Would have definitely liked to try out the Greg Ball GBA 150, but he's walked away from audio, and I don't know how good the Chinese PCB designer's Jims Audio's kits are. The (expensive by DIY standards) Holton amp modules are there too, with 1 double-die MOSFET per rail. May try a pair of Rod Elliott P101 too. (I wish Rod would invest in some good measurement gear and do more detailed measurements of his amps.) I am interested in getting into a space with the amp modules where I operate them with 40V transformer secondaries (+/-56V DC rails). Will I need so much power per amp in a 3-way active design? Don't know. But I want to try and not have any doubts about amp power and cleanness in my next build. I am certain 200W won't go amiss for woofers, with LT being needed many a times.
I have also discovered some brilliant and talented friends who can help with amp chassis locally. I used to regret not having any Modushop quality of chassis maker in India -- I no longer feel that at all. I am now getting top quality amp chassis work done with 10mm front plates, lovely heatsinks of various sections, CNC cutouts for connectors etc, all locally. What a find! Torotrans in Pune is giving me toroids to order -- I've just placed an order for one with 4 secondaries of 24V, 10A each, to power two channels of a Modulus-686 build -- the xfmr will have an electrostatic shield too. If I can get such transformers to order, I can build dual-mono or multi-way mono amps (common transformer, completely separate secondary windings per amp) as per my wish. Will write about my amp related explorations later, in some other thread.
Wish me luck.
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