Rob M said:
Mmm, our tasteless cuisine has nothing to do with US bashing. The Netherlands won't be perfect when McDonalds would leave, maybe they lift the level of Dutch cuisine
But their policy with their low wages is a disgrace. They advertise it themselves as a chance for foreigners/allochtonen ( in Dutch ) to get a job with perspective. I would like to change a lot in the Netherlands but the recent recession makes things even harder. I don't see why allochtoon is a racist word. But I'll ask my wife, she is a real allochtoon. Holland is one of the very few European countries were foreigners/allochtonen feel at home so I guess we're doing not too bad in that aspect. IMO racism is a lot stronger in the USA were the black community is treated differently to say the least.
Imperialist, No.
I see your point of view. I don’t agree with it, but I do understand what you think we are about. Please don’t get me wrong, I have many criticisms of our government, and some of its actions, of which recent actions in Iraq is not one. My US born parents were taken from their home and interned in fenced camps for 2 years during WW2 and I lost my brother in Viet Nam. Through all that and a lifetime living in the US, I can say that, today, without doubt, the US is not Imperialistic, and does not have Imperialistic intentions. I don’t wish to debate this on the forum. I only wanted to verify my suspicions of the European view of the US. I will remain as patriotic as I always have been.
Thanks for your replies.
I see your point of view. I don’t agree with it, but I do understand what you think we are about. Please don’t get me wrong, I have many criticisms of our government, and some of its actions, of which recent actions in Iraq is not one. My US born parents were taken from their home and interned in fenced camps for 2 years during WW2 and I lost my brother in Viet Nam. Through all that and a lifetime living in the US, I can say that, today, without doubt, the US is not Imperialistic, and does not have Imperialistic intentions. I don’t wish to debate this on the forum. I only wanted to verify my suspicions of the European view of the US. I will remain as patriotic as I always have been.
Thanks for your replies.
I wish we would be more like that. Pride for your nation is good but if exxagerated it can turn against the people. Especially when the population is a mix of different races/colours/beliefs.
In Holland we don't even have a protocol for raising our national flag. Very very few people know the national anthem by head. We confuse patriotism very quickly with nationalism of which the horrible results could be seen in recent wars in former Yugoslavia. The lack of pride for our country and culture causes that we are sometimes negative about our own country and every occasion that occurs will be used to complain about what's wrong. Probably this slightly negative image and commercial driven interests make us more sensitive to foreign influences. Patriotism is seen as something from the fifties here unfortunately.
Patriotism is more then about borders or forms of government or national symbols, but on the ideals on which they are based. Patriotism is the belief in the ideals upon which America was founded. Those ideals are America, and the near universal belief in those ideals in the US is what makes America as strong as it is today.
btw.
Patriotism doesn´t mean to believe your nation is the best in the world. Or that being from your country makes you the best. Patriotism means for instance to die for your country as if it was your father or mother you are defending.
Patriotism is not to attack other countries because you believe you are the best, and being the best gives you the right to do what you want.
Patriotism doesn´t mean to believe your nation is the best in the world. Or that being from your country makes you the best. Patriotism means for instance to die for your country as if it was your father or mother you are defending.
Patriotism is not to attack other countries because you believe you are the best, and being the best gives you the right to do what you want.
See posts number 8 and 9 in this thread. The quote in number 8 is the Preamble to our Constitution written over 200years agopromitheus said:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16304
all of this from a peeing pig mouth. 
At least it is under the "everything else" topic.
For all of the McDonalds/Walmart/etc bashers out there who complain of the ruin of their country because of the corporate infiltration don't forget that it hit us first. Think of the small town (and not so small town) folk whose businesses have dried up under the shade of Wallmart. Think of the small farmers forced out of business by corporate farms who are subsidized by the govt to who they pay taxes from their meager earnings, to cite only a couple of many examples. You bash them too when you spit on the "amerikans". You think all amerikans are out to get you and are enthusiastically behind the greed machine? If so, you should broaden your mind. It only appears that way because you see on TV what we see, which is pure propaganda that makes even us as american individuals think that noone thinks like we do, which is utterly false. Our government/media combination is spewing more propaganda than I can ever remember, most of it paper thin to anyone with eyes and ears. It is the power-hungry greedy elite who with their coroporate money and influence have taken over our government and whittled away our constitution that are behind all of this, not the average joe, who is by and large in the same boat as you, just on the other side of an ocean.
Imperialism? perhaps in a corporate sense. Don't think the wealthy in YOUR countries aren't up to their elbows in Macdonald's and Walmart stock, just like the wealthy here are. If you want imperialism, look at the leaders of the WTO and those in the GREAT 8. The average american DIYer and his brother are no more imperialistic than anyone else.
tim s
At least it is under the "everything else" topic. For all of the McDonalds/Walmart/etc bashers out there who complain of the ruin of their country because of the corporate infiltration don't forget that it hit us first. Think of the small town (and not so small town) folk whose businesses have dried up under the shade of Wallmart. Think of the small farmers forced out of business by corporate farms who are subsidized by the govt to who they pay taxes from their meager earnings, to cite only a couple of many examples. You bash them too when you spit on the "amerikans". You think all amerikans are out to get you and are enthusiastically behind the greed machine? If so, you should broaden your mind. It only appears that way because you see on TV what we see, which is pure propaganda that makes even us as american individuals think that noone thinks like we do, which is utterly false. Our government/media combination is spewing more propaganda than I can ever remember, most of it paper thin to anyone with eyes and ears. It is the power-hungry greedy elite who with their coroporate money and influence have taken over our government and whittled away our constitution that are behind all of this, not the average joe, who is by and large in the same boat as you, just on the other side of an ocean.
Imperialism? perhaps in a corporate sense. Don't think the wealthy in YOUR countries aren't up to their elbows in Macdonald's and Walmart stock, just like the wealthy here are. If you want imperialism, look at the leaders of the WTO and those in the GREAT 8. The average american DIYer and his brother are no more imperialistic than anyone else.
tim s
Jean-Paul
I may be misunderstanding you, but your mentions of Murdoch and the US media confuses me. He is not from the US. If anything, his companys have no home.
And that is something that is rather new to our world, which most have not really grasped. The multinationals? They have no home. Hell, many of the largest in the US have now reformed offshore to avoid taxes and the rules.
If I want to go shopping for food, I really have the choice of going to a store owned by the Dutch, or English or Asia. The store owned by a local firm is barely hanging in.
Buy a car? There is no difference anymore. Regardless of the name. Toyotas, BMW and Honda's are most likely to be made in the US, while your Chrysler or Chevrolet is either assembled in Canada or Mexico. Its all about profit. And it can be dollars or euros, they don't care.
I fear that the next 25 years will be ugly between Europe and the Americas (all of them, not just the US as all of our economies are so intertwined). Why? Europe is aging, just like the US, but you have a head start on us. When we want to retire, there will not likely be the support structure that most have come to expect. While in the US more believe in UFO's than the government's promise to be there when we retire, I don't know that Western Europe shares our cynicism - and when it fails, I suspect that the US and Asia to a lessor exent, will get the blame. I hope I am wrong.
I may be misunderstanding you, but your mentions of Murdoch and the US media confuses me. He is not from the US. If anything, his companys have no home.
And that is something that is rather new to our world, which most have not really grasped. The multinationals? They have no home. Hell, many of the largest in the US have now reformed offshore to avoid taxes and the rules.
If I want to go shopping for food, I really have the choice of going to a store owned by the Dutch, or English or Asia. The store owned by a local firm is barely hanging in.
Buy a car? There is no difference anymore. Regardless of the name. Toyotas, BMW and Honda's are most likely to be made in the US, while your Chrysler or Chevrolet is either assembled in Canada or Mexico. Its all about profit. And it can be dollars or euros, they don't care.
I fear that the next 25 years will be ugly between Europe and the Americas (all of them, not just the US as all of our economies are so intertwined). Why? Europe is aging, just like the US, but you have a head start on us. When we want to retire, there will not likely be the support structure that most have come to expect. While in the US more believe in UFO's than the government's promise to be there when we retire, I don't know that Western Europe shares our cynicism - and when it fails, I suspect that the US and Asia to a lessor exent, will get the blame. I hope I am wrong.
Perspectives
The world if full of perspectives, of that there is no question. American 'liberation' is sometimes viewed as imperialism, when to some, it is newfound freedom and to others it is international bullying. As a proud citizen of the US, I wish we all could see things from the same perspective. Are 'we' right? Are 'you' right? I have no clue. I have learned through my life thus far to try and see other's perspective, but an absolute truth which is apparent to everyone is just not there. I am indeed a patriot, and I do understand the roots of the word and its common meaning in terms of American English today. I also am a humanist. I, in true honesty, would wish happiness on each and every member of this site, other sites and people who have never even seen a website. To say I am superior because I am an American is not who I am. I am simply a person. In the realm of hi end audio (the focus of this site) I am less than a neophyte. In the realm of international governing, I am an order of magnitude less. In the realm of engineering, I am an adolescent. In the realm of the human, I am equal to all.
Yes, the current and all past governments in US history have made mistakes. The current and all past governments of whatever country or religion you choose have made mistakes. To hold a society responsible for mistakes in isolation from that society's contributions is Neanderthal at best.
If actions in the Middle East are to govern world opinion about the US for a time to come, allow those in the Middle East to determine how they feel before jumping on a bandwagon. Any war would ideally be avoided. Are there WMD in Iraq? Does it matter to those in Iraq? If time tells that the current US administration is in error, as a proud American, I will accept the error and I will hope that any world power will avoid the same mistake in the future. If America is as evil and dominating as some people seem to feel, the evil Americans could indeed have staged anything necessary to make 'us' look right. The reality is, though, that there are still questions. This world dominating, all-powerful government is apparently not controlling the media after all. Maybe, there are honest people, from many different cultures, trying to determine the actual truth after all.
To solve the issue, we all should view ourselves as citizens of the world. Different cultures, states, countries, religions and many more self-defeating denominations. There are good, wholesome people the world around. Some live here. Some live there.
I hope to see some of you again discussing capacitors, circuits and general DIYAudio soon.
Sandy.
The world if full of perspectives, of that there is no question. American 'liberation' is sometimes viewed as imperialism, when to some, it is newfound freedom and to others it is international bullying. As a proud citizen of the US, I wish we all could see things from the same perspective. Are 'we' right? Are 'you' right? I have no clue. I have learned through my life thus far to try and see other's perspective, but an absolute truth which is apparent to everyone is just not there. I am indeed a patriot, and I do understand the roots of the word and its common meaning in terms of American English today. I also am a humanist. I, in true honesty, would wish happiness on each and every member of this site, other sites and people who have never even seen a website. To say I am superior because I am an American is not who I am. I am simply a person. In the realm of hi end audio (the focus of this site) I am less than a neophyte. In the realm of international governing, I am an order of magnitude less. In the realm of engineering, I am an adolescent. In the realm of the human, I am equal to all.
Yes, the current and all past governments in US history have made mistakes. The current and all past governments of whatever country or religion you choose have made mistakes. To hold a society responsible for mistakes in isolation from that society's contributions is Neanderthal at best.
If actions in the Middle East are to govern world opinion about the US for a time to come, allow those in the Middle East to determine how they feel before jumping on a bandwagon. Any war would ideally be avoided. Are there WMD in Iraq? Does it matter to those in Iraq? If time tells that the current US administration is in error, as a proud American, I will accept the error and I will hope that any world power will avoid the same mistake in the future. If America is as evil and dominating as some people seem to feel, the evil Americans could indeed have staged anything necessary to make 'us' look right. The reality is, though, that there are still questions. This world dominating, all-powerful government is apparently not controlling the media after all. Maybe, there are honest people, from many different cultures, trying to determine the actual truth after all.
To solve the issue, we all should view ourselves as citizens of the world. Different cultures, states, countries, religions and many more self-defeating denominations. There are good, wholesome people the world around. Some live here. Some live there.
I hope to see some of you again discussing capacitors, circuits and general DIYAudio soon.
Sandy.
Just for reference; he took US citizenship (by $ome means or other).
The US tries to dominate on a number of fronts: Millitary and economic being the main ones. It is it's sheer size and muscle that makes it unstoppable, not it's rightousness.
This is not meant as a critisism, just a statement of fact. There have been many empires over history, and this is the current leader.
In the distant future cracks will appear, and it will fall, to be replaced by something either better or worse. This is a historical cycle. Unfortunately the cultures and languages smothered by the US and English will be lost for ever.
From a personal point of view I find the cultural attack stifling.
Then how do you explain Alcatel (French!) taking over and closing Rockwell/Collins, and doing damn near the same to Digital Switch. And then moving what little is left to Asian plants. Our imagination? Try telling that to thousands of unemployed engineers.
None of whom can get jobs at McDonalds.
I'm really getting tired of reading this crap that the US is the root of all evil in the world. Why the hell do people from all over the world come here, and stay. I don't see them moving to your socialist utopia of the EU. The place I ate dinner tonight is run by a family that fled that part of the world to avoid your "ethnic cleansing".
I suppose that we started that, too. Seems that way from reading this thread.
Jocko
This thread worries me, particularly as a number have been sinbinned for their comment......
I've risked thrombosis sitting for long hours at my PC today working a huge and demanding technical instruction, but I can't resist a comment meself.... (sic).
All this BS about Americans, culture, capitalism and boorishness is absurd. I loved the drooling pig - as close to irony as the Americans get, and just delicious!! Of course the world's largest economy will be accused of all these things!! The leader is always maligned, regardless of his qualities, and that's just life.
America is truly one of the largest multicultural societies on the planet. In no other country of the world are there so many varied communities, divided along ethnic, religious and cultural grounds, yet all working within the same economy. The culture of the United States is, by definition, a polyglot, and even if it is largely true that many cultures within that same great country scarcely communicate - for example the Anglo Americans and the Vietnamese community of Alabama, or the Laotian community of California, it is still true that the combined output is diverse, vital, and growing. Europe is extremely cliquey, though becoming less so these days, particularly in the Netherlands and Scandinavia, and while these changes are occuring from the seventies forward in Europe they were already in progress in the US in the early part of the twentieth century, clearly illustrated in the NY Ellis Island era.
I believe this is now largely recognized with Europe, if only tacitly. After all, there is scarcely an educated European on the planet who does not speak English more than competently. I for one am grateful for this. My French is appalling, my pronuniciation excrable.
As for the crie du coeur of French speakers about the cultural anti-Christ that is America, sheer humbug. I've never heard such self-righteous claptrap. This is merely Gallic prejudice, with no meaning, justification, or credibility. Frank, you are 1 nice guy, and I'm ashamed of you.
Most of the art of modern Belgium is the creation of the long dead. I know Belgium only as the home of the European parliament. Better not go there... America's art is the work of the living, regardless of any arguments for or against quality, and for the most part is far more diverse and less hidebound by tradition than any European country. What about Glass, Copeland, Twain (Mark, not bloody Shania), Whitman, Richard Brautigan (a writer I love), John Upfield, Tennessee Williams, JD Salinger, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Randy Crawford, and the list goes on. I love Breugel, and Saints Saens, and de Maupassant (both French, I grant you), and have a good friend who is extremely cultured and from Belgium, but the country is no more significant these days than my own country, Australia, which has produced a few good painters, and some nice music, and some pretty good rock 'n roll, and some gorgeous babes....... But I digress.
America is in fact what Europe might have become if it had not been so consumed with nationalism, clannishness, religious intolerance, entrenched prejudice, and territorial squabbles. That the two regions could be compared to each other is probably absurd. America is great because it has managed to hold together a confederation as viable today as 120 years ago, it has come of age during an appalling civil war which ultimately united the country in fair-minded common purpose, and it has embraced diversity, in sharp contrast to Europe, at least until recent decades. My own country started out as a gaol - a bloody big one - yet ironically the very equality of this dreadful beginning all but destroyed the British concept of social class, and in that important clincher we have a lot in common with the US. Oh, we still have classes, but strictly here the only differentiator is money - much like the States (at least the West coast, no??)
Yet Australia and the US both have many European features, which, denuded of their ancient prejudices, are just delightful, and highly cultured. Continental Cafes, for examples, and arthouse cinemas.....
So, let's stop the !@#$ about Americans. So much of modern life, with all the trappings of convenience, communications and openness, not to mention the culture of individualism, comes from America. I believe, compared to other countries in past centuries, this has been a truly great contribution and I salute America for contributing so grandly to modern life.
End of rant. Now let's talk about interconnects.....
Cheers,
Hugh
I've risked thrombosis sitting for long hours at my PC today working a huge and demanding technical instruction, but I can't resist a comment meself.... (sic).
All this BS about Americans, culture, capitalism and boorishness is absurd. I loved the drooling pig - as close to irony as the Americans get, and just delicious!! Of course the world's largest economy will be accused of all these things!! The leader is always maligned, regardless of his qualities, and that's just life.
America is truly one of the largest multicultural societies on the planet. In no other country of the world are there so many varied communities, divided along ethnic, religious and cultural grounds, yet all working within the same economy. The culture of the United States is, by definition, a polyglot, and even if it is largely true that many cultures within that same great country scarcely communicate - for example the Anglo Americans and the Vietnamese community of Alabama, or the Laotian community of California, it is still true that the combined output is diverse, vital, and growing. Europe is extremely cliquey, though becoming less so these days, particularly in the Netherlands and Scandinavia, and while these changes are occuring from the seventies forward in Europe they were already in progress in the US in the early part of the twentieth century, clearly illustrated in the NY Ellis Island era.
I believe this is now largely recognized with Europe, if only tacitly. After all, there is scarcely an educated European on the planet who does not speak English more than competently. I for one am grateful for this. My French is appalling, my pronuniciation excrable.
As for the crie du coeur of French speakers about the cultural anti-Christ that is America, sheer humbug. I've never heard such self-righteous claptrap. This is merely Gallic prejudice, with no meaning, justification, or credibility. Frank, you are 1 nice guy, and I'm ashamed of you.
Most of the art of modern Belgium is the creation of the long dead. I know Belgium only as the home of the European parliament. Better not go there... America's art is the work of the living, regardless of any arguments for or against quality, and for the most part is far more diverse and less hidebound by tradition than any European country. What about Glass, Copeland, Twain (Mark, not bloody Shania), Whitman, Richard Brautigan (a writer I love), John Upfield, Tennessee Williams, JD Salinger, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, Randy Crawford, and the list goes on. I love Breugel, and Saints Saens, and de Maupassant (both French, I grant you), and have a good friend who is extremely cultured and from Belgium, but the country is no more significant these days than my own country, Australia, which has produced a few good painters, and some nice music, and some pretty good rock 'n roll, and some gorgeous babes....... But I digress.
America is in fact what Europe might have become if it had not been so consumed with nationalism, clannishness, religious intolerance, entrenched prejudice, and territorial squabbles. That the two regions could be compared to each other is probably absurd. America is great because it has managed to hold together a confederation as viable today as 120 years ago, it has come of age during an appalling civil war which ultimately united the country in fair-minded common purpose, and it has embraced diversity, in sharp contrast to Europe, at least until recent decades. My own country started out as a gaol - a bloody big one - yet ironically the very equality of this dreadful beginning all but destroyed the British concept of social class, and in that important clincher we have a lot in common with the US. Oh, we still have classes, but strictly here the only differentiator is money - much like the States (at least the West coast, no??)
Yet Australia and the US both have many European features, which, denuded of their ancient prejudices, are just delightful, and highly cultured. Continental Cafes, for examples, and arthouse cinemas.....
So, let's stop the !@#$ about Americans. So much of modern life, with all the trappings of convenience, communications and openness, not to mention the culture of individualism, comes from America. I believe, compared to other countries in past centuries, this has been a truly great contribution and I salute America for contributing so grandly to modern life.
End of rant. Now let's talk about interconnects.....
Cheers,
Hugh
AKSA said:
As a belgian I feel I have to reply to this BS.
I don't know why you picked Belgium, but that's a dumn statement, made without even knowing anything about our culture.
We only have 10milj. inhabitants, so it's normal that we can't produce a huge amount of art. The same can be said about finland or iceland, yet even in those countries great things are made.
Our biggest problem is our modesty. We have been occupied for a long period by different nations. They have always told us that we are worthless. And that feeling is still present among many of us. But things are changing. eg. for a small country we do pretty good at some sports.
Great films are made here to, but there just isn't money enough to advertise them.
We probably produce more fine art then the average US state, yet we are a lot smaller.
As I have said before, good art is made everywhere around the world. Even in an empty country like australia.
You complain about other people here bashing the US culture, yet you do the same about Belgian culture, without even having a clue. Great going AKSA!
People from all over the world come here too and stay. Weak argument. People from all over the world come to places where economy is OK and freedom is a right. It might come as a surprise but we have both too. In some areas freedom is broader than in the US and in others smaller ( freedom of speech has limits here concerning "harming" words to other people ). From the 17th century till now we have freedom of religion and so forth. When jews were threatened in other countries they fled to Holland. Our social system is miles ahead of the US system. Nobody has to have hunger here.
Calling ethnic cleansing ours is a real shame. I don't wish to be called in the same sentence with these words. Distances between countries may be a lot smaller than in the US but vast differences in culture are a fact. Don't you think the dutch might think 100 % the same about ethnic cleansing ? Don't be so small minded please.
Do you remember what happened to the indians in the US ?
BTW I never said the US are root of all evil. I just wish they leave us alone. I am satisfied with our culture WITH it's shortcomings. Not everything is about money here ( but times are changing ).
Jean-Paul:
Since you seem to have the impression my response was directed at you (it wasn't):
Not in the numbers that come here. It has been so for over 200 years, and will continue to be so.
See above, and/or move your country next to Mexico.
I believe the EU did very little until we started dropping bombs on the offenders.
Yes, we know what happened to the "Indians". Perhaps you would like to remind us who started the slave trade too while you are at it.
You assume that we don't agree with you?????
BTW, when was the last time someone held a gun to your head, and made you watch CNN whilst dining at McDonalds? If anyone ever did, it would surely not be an American. Because that is not what America is about. If you feel that way, then I feel sorry for you.
The sad truth is that this latest round of crap all started because Phred posted a pic of a boar statue and made reference to Dallas as being the "Vienna of the South". I don't know which is more preposterous; that he could actually think up something that ludicrous, or that some of you could not see the joke and believe that it was so.
Jocko
Since you seem to have the impression my response was directed at you (it wasn't):
Not in the numbers that come here. It has been so for over 200 years, and will continue to be so.
See above, and/or move your country next to Mexico.
I believe the EU did very little until we started dropping bombs on the offenders.
Yes, we know what happened to the "Indians". Perhaps you would like to remind us who started the slave trade too while you are at it.
You assume that we don't agree with you?????
BTW, when was the last time someone held a gun to your head, and made you watch CNN whilst dining at McDonalds? If anyone ever did, it would surely not be an American. Because that is not what America is about. If you feel that way, then I feel sorry for you.
The sad truth is that this latest round of crap all started because Phred posted a pic of a boar statue and made reference to Dallas as being the "Vienna of the South". I don't know which is more preposterous; that he could actually think up something that ludicrous, or that some of you could not see the joke and believe that it was so.
Jocko
- Status
- Not open for further replies.