Thanks for the reply Grey,
However I just can't stop asking about your amp..
You should know that I propably delayed my graduation from university (Biology !) by about a halve year trying to understand all the PassLabs project, products and patents. It became obsessive
So another questions:
Why not use a mixed feedback design: some 'local' feedback in the diff-pair (as in the BOSOZ) and a little bit 'global' around the output stage to the inputs. This improves stability I think and could allow for more parrallel output devices.
As for the folded-cascode design, too bad it did not work out well, but I think you made it a little too complicated.. I'll email you my version..
gr,
Thijs
However I just can't stop asking about your amp..
You should know that I propably delayed my graduation from university (Biology !) by about a halve year trying to understand all the PassLabs project, products and patents. It became obsessive
So another questions:
Why not use a mixed feedback design: some 'local' feedback in the diff-pair (as in the BOSOZ) and a little bit 'global' around the output stage to the inputs. This improves stability I think and could allow for more parrallel output devices.
As for the folded-cascode design, too bad it did not work out well, but I think you made it a little too complicated.. I'll email you my version..
gr,
Thijs
Thijs,
How about sharing your design with all of us? I have a design of my own that is basically an X front end (folded cascode version)coupled to a variation of the Aleph output stage. Seems to work OK on the simulator, haven't yet had time to try it in practice. I am always keen to see what variations others have played around with.
Ian.
How about sharing your design with all of us? I have a design of my own that is basically an X front end (folded cascode version)coupled to a variation of the Aleph output stage. Seems to work OK on the simulator, haven't yet had time to try it in practice. I am always keen to see what variations others have played around with.
Ian.
Dear Ian Macmillan,
I was afriad this would happen. I actually do not feel comfortable sharing the design at this point with the comunity. I feel different on this conserning grey, as he obviously is beyond my futile attemps and I would like to thank him somehow for his efforts without hurting my karma.
I hope you respect this discision.
gr,
Thijs
I was afriad this would happen. I actually do not feel comfortable sharing the design at this point with the comunity. I feel different on this conserning grey, as he obviously is beyond my futile attemps and I would like to thank him somehow for his efforts without hurting my karma.
I hope you respect this discision.
gr,
Thijs
I feel compelled to speak on this issue concerning Harry.
First, Grey is correct. The way HH acts on this board is beyond rude and insulting. I, for one, am tired of his belittling attitude towards those who disagree, or who do not know as much as he does.
Second, Harry is one smart guy! It pains me to say it, but it is a fact- he knows his stuff. I admit that when it is possible to read through his line of horsesh*t, there is a lot to learn from him. Like a lot of other really bright people, he has an extreme lack of interpersonal skills.
Third- there are people like Grey and Nelson on here that earn our respect with both their ability and understanding of audio electronics, and their character and willingness to share their knowledge in an accessible way. When I first stumbled onto this board, I found the general attitude to be open and helpful. Since then, there has been a tendency toward a "bow down to the guru" type of attitude. There are a few people who are propagating this attitude, (HH being one) and then there are those who, lacking in intelligence or common sense, tend to follow along and imitate them and their negativity. This new attitude is creating a division in an otherwise great community. Like any community, we will all benefit from having an open and tolerant attitude toward other people's ideas, even while holding to our own preferences and beliefs.
To sum it up: I will not tolerate the negativity any more. I will not participate in discussions that are being used as a personal attack against myself or somebody else. As members of this community, we have a right and a responsibility to put an end to this type of stupidity. I think most of these people "get off" on getting into it with as many people as possible. I propose that we should not fuel these discussions any more. When someone interupts a thread with such nonsense, we should not respond to that person. By keeping the discussion alive and ignoring these people, we can put an end to it. If it continues at that point, we may need to talk to the moderator and see if more drastic action can be taken. Obviously, as the internet is a "free speech" type of forum, this would be a last resort. I just can't see throwing away such a great resource as this board to a few pigs who are trying to get everyone to roll in the mud with them.
Steve (stepping down off of his soapbox now)
First, Grey is correct. The way HH acts on this board is beyond rude and insulting. I, for one, am tired of his belittling attitude towards those who disagree, or who do not know as much as he does.
Second, Harry is one smart guy! It pains me to say it, but it is a fact- he knows his stuff. I admit that when it is possible to read through his line of horsesh*t, there is a lot to learn from him. Like a lot of other really bright people, he has an extreme lack of interpersonal skills.
Third- there are people like Grey and Nelson on here that earn our respect with both their ability and understanding of audio electronics, and their character and willingness to share their knowledge in an accessible way. When I first stumbled onto this board, I found the general attitude to be open and helpful. Since then, there has been a tendency toward a "bow down to the guru" type of attitude. There are a few people who are propagating this attitude, (HH being one) and then there are those who, lacking in intelligence or common sense, tend to follow along and imitate them and their negativity. This new attitude is creating a division in an otherwise great community. Like any community, we will all benefit from having an open and tolerant attitude toward other people's ideas, even while holding to our own preferences and beliefs.
To sum it up: I will not tolerate the negativity any more. I will not participate in discussions that are being used as a personal attack against myself or somebody else. As members of this community, we have a right and a responsibility to put an end to this type of stupidity. I think most of these people "get off" on getting into it with as many people as possible. I propose that we should not fuel these discussions any more. When someone interupts a thread with such nonsense, we should not respond to that person. By keeping the discussion alive and ignoring these people, we can put an end to it. If it continues at that point, we may need to talk to the moderator and see if more drastic action can be taken. Obviously, as the internet is a "free speech" type of forum, this would be a last resort. I just can't see throwing away such a great resource as this board to a few pigs who are trying to get everyone to roll in the mud with them.
Steve (stepping down off of his soapbox now)
Army Boots and the Aleph-X!
Guys,
We got to start a new thread for this one. I for one don't want to spoil Grey's excellent efforts on this project.
Every seems to have comments on Harry but like Peter (HPotter) I believe that Harry has offered us a lot. You have to realize that when he makes a comment he is asking a valid question. It seems that many members are too sensitive and get feelings hurt rather than persue the answer. The ones that seem most offended are the ones that feel their turf is being invaded and and probably feel they are loosing their importance.
I for one feel that I have learnt a lot from Harry but that does not mean I agree with everything he says. I put it to to challenge him if you disagree rather than wine about it.
Jam
Guys,
We got to start a new thread for this one. I for one don't want to spoil Grey's excellent efforts on this project.
Every seems to have comments on Harry but like Peter (HPotter) I believe that Harry has offered us a lot. You have to realize that when he makes a comment he is asking a valid question. It seems that many members are too sensitive and get feelings hurt rather than persue the answer. The ones that seem most offended are the ones that feel their turf is being invaded and and probably feel they are loosing their importance.
I for one feel that I have learnt a lot from Harry but that does not mean I agree with everything he says. I put it to to challenge him if you disagree rather than wine about it.
Jam
Jam,
indeed, this is probably the single most interesting thread of the forum right now. I find it insulting toward Grey and other intelligent members of this group to tar it up with this kind of crap.
I have never been particulary politically correct, on the contrary sometimes I have been down right 'trolly'. However, dicking around on a thread like this goes bejond my line in the sand.
I propose that instead of starting a new thread the moderators clean up this current thread from all the junk it accumulated, including this post.
indeed, this is probably the single most interesting thread of the forum right now. I find it insulting toward Grey and other intelligent members of this group to tar it up with this kind of crap.
I have never been particulary politically correct, on the contrary sometimes I have been down right 'trolly'. However, dicking around on a thread like this goes bejond my line in the sand.
I propose that instead of starting a new thread the moderators clean up this current thread from all the junk it accumulated, including this post.
Perspective is in order here...
First, I wanted to thank Grey (along with Nelson in the background) for working this out.... Fantastic!!!
I too am very interested to know how this sounds...
As a neophyte in the design arena, I appreciate and value the experience and wisdom of those who know more than I. However, I must admit that the constant background chatter has grown very tiresome...
H.H. without question you clearly have lots of experience to share and I for one value your contributions. That having been said, I would like to point out something out to you... The following was your first post in this thread. Please keep in mind that Grey took the time to ATTEMPT this circuit. He never said it was perfect and actually went out of his way to mention more than once that it was VERSION 1 and that he had yet to fully test it...
Your first post out of the gate was:
In other words, criticism and condescension first followed by an oh by the way "A good start though and alot of effort I'm sure. Kudos."
The point is, at least he attempted the circuit. Given a choice, I would prefer to not have to mine the gems of your wisdom out of a metric ton of sarcasm. Your points are very valid and definitely warrant consideration. Whether you agree with Grey or others is up to you but sometimes how you present your thoughts grows a bit tiresome...
A statement such as "Hey, the circuit looks good! I'm sure it was a lot of work! By the way, have you considered...." This says the same thing as your post but with an entirely different feel... Food for thought...
I am certain that with your knowledge you too could have reverse engineered this as well if you had chosen to...but he actually took the time to do it...
Again, I appreciate the experience and wisdom of ALL on this board. Most here know more than I and the collective wisdom is unparalleled. It is an unbelievable place to learn from...
I look forward to the continuation of the constructive, knowledgeable posts that drew me to this forum in the first place...
Thanks again Grey for taking a shot at this...
Steve
First, I wanted to thank Grey (along with Nelson in the background) for working this out.... Fantastic!!!
I too am very interested to know how this sounds...
As a neophyte in the design arena, I appreciate and value the experience and wisdom of those who know more than I. However, I must admit that the constant background chatter has grown very tiresome...
H.H. without question you clearly have lots of experience to share and I for one value your contributions. That having been said, I would like to point out something out to you... The following was your first post in this thread. Please keep in mind that Grey took the time to ATTEMPT this circuit. He never said it was perfect and actually went out of his way to mention more than once that it was VERSION 1 and that he had yet to fully test it...
Your first post out of the gate was:
In other words, criticism and condescension first followed by an oh by the way "A good start though and alot of effort I'm sure. Kudos."
The point is, at least he attempted the circuit. Given a choice, I would prefer to not have to mine the gems of your wisdom out of a metric ton of sarcasm. Your points are very valid and definitely warrant consideration. Whether you agree with Grey or others is up to you but sometimes how you present your thoughts grows a bit tiresome...
A statement such as "Hey, the circuit looks good! I'm sure it was a lot of work! By the way, have you considered...." This says the same thing as your post but with an entirely different feel... Food for thought...
I am certain that with your knowledge you too could have reverse engineered this as well if you had chosen to...but he actually took the time to do it...
Again, I appreciate the experience and wisdom of ALL on this board. Most here know more than I and the collective wisdom is unparalleled. It is an unbelievable place to learn from...
I look forward to the continuation of the constructive, knowledgeable posts that drew me to this forum in the first place...
Thanks again Grey for taking a shot at this...
Steve
criticism and condescension
Everyone wants the benifit of experience, but no one wants to admit when they are mistaken or might even learn something. We have another forum member that is having problems with oscillations with a "copy" of a Pass design. The Pass designs are well designed stable amps that many people have succesfully built, if you copy the origional design and use a good layout. Read the following to see what I mean about faithfully copying the design.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3767
This is the second design that Mr. Rollins has put up here that has no freqency compensation. It was disscussed before and ignored by him. I can't imagine why one would base an amp on Nelson Pass's designs and leave out important parts. If Mr. Rollins is too good to ask Harry about the subject go ask Mr. Pass.
I hardly think asking to show some responsibility when posting something that someone will very likely go off and build (and possibly fry their tweeters) is criticism and condescension; unless one is purposely looking for it to discredit the poster. I doubt it will be an issue with Harry anymore since Grey has probably run him off with his hysterics.
Ren
Everyone wants the benifit of experience, but no one wants to admit when they are mistaken or might even learn something. We have another forum member that is having problems with oscillations with a "copy" of a Pass design. The Pass designs are well designed stable amps that many people have succesfully built, if you copy the origional design and use a good layout. Read the following to see what I mean about faithfully copying the design.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3767
This is the second design that Mr. Rollins has put up here that has no freqency compensation. It was disscussed before and ignored by him. I can't imagine why one would base an amp on Nelson Pass's designs and leave out important parts. If Mr. Rollins is too good to ask Harry about the subject go ask Mr. Pass.
I hardly think asking to show some responsibility when posting something that someone will very likely go off and build (and possibly fry their tweeters) is criticism and condescension; unless one is purposely looking for it to discredit the poster. I doubt it will be an issue with Harry anymore since Grey has probably run him off with his hysterics.
Ren
Okay i am tired of this!!!!!
Why do you think Harry and I talk a lot about phase margin!?!??!
It is not that we are trying to stamp on you all!! But if an amp oscilllates it can cost you your speakers and you expensively home build amp. Not to speak from how it sound when oscillating.
Harry has sarcasm and very dark humor, but he also give you something usefull... What about all the times where he has uploaded spicemodels so that you guys can check you design before building it.
What about all the times where he has come up with some design changes i thought you all would benefit from... Okay it is not served on a silverplate ... why?? because he think that you should use your head instead of only saying "yes sir!?"
Everything he i has linked to are not ******** .. like the last one about phase margin and bodeplot... That is a really good tool... It makes up the difference between a good design and ...........
Sorry for my anger!!!!!
Sonny
Why do you think Harry and I talk a lot about phase margin!?!??!
It is not that we are trying to stamp on you all!! But if an amp oscilllates it can cost you your speakers and you expensively home build amp. Not to speak from how it sound when oscillating.
Harry has sarcasm and very dark humor, but he also give you something usefull... What about all the times where he has uploaded spicemodels so that you guys can check you design before building it.
What about all the times where he has come up with some design changes i thought you all would benefit from... Okay it is not served on a silverplate ... why?? because he think that you should use your head instead of only saying "yes sir!?"
Everything he i has linked to are not ******** .. like the last one about phase margin and bodeplot... That is a really good tool... It makes up the difference between a good design and ...........
Sorry for my anger!!!!!
Sonny
Hello Ren,
Thank you for the link. I am very familiar with it since I too have been in contact with the individual who started that thread outside of this forum...
I would like to clarify that the design that was used for the boards in question were actually taken directly from the Aleph schematics by BrianGT. I am also extremely familiar with that project because I too was part of the group purchase and the review process of the boards and design in question...
Please review the following threads to familiarize yourself with exactly what Scott is using:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2942
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3143
I would like to very clear here - I have no doubt about H.H.'s technical expertise as I've posted above. I do however take offense to ANYONE not contributing to this forum in a professional and courteous manner. In my case, I am extremely busy both personally and professionally. When I read this forum it's with the intention to broaden my knowledge base and contribute when I can. I have no interest in reading posts back and forth that are the result of professional jealousy.
In this case, I singled out H.H. because the fact is he does create a lot of background noise. Contained in that noise are genuine nuggets of very valuable knowledge but frankly I'm tired of the condescending attitude. I have not seen one post where anyone has attacked, condescended, or questioned his knowledge in the manner that he consistently does to others on this board. There are all knowledge levels present here. While Nelson, H.H., Grey, Sonny, perhaps yourself, and others have forgotten more than I'll ever know regarding audio design, I always look forward to being able to post a question no matter how simplistic with the expectation that I'll receive a courteous not condescending answer. I do not expect to have answers handed to me on a silver platter, however, I do expect neutral posts that don't make myself or others feel foolish...
Finally, as I stated in my previous post - Grey took the time to take a shot at this circuit design. You, me, H.H., Sonny and most of the others have not... and for that I'm grateful... He's the only one who's done it so far... He was very clear that it was VERSION 1 AND HAD YET TO BE ACID TESTED...
Why so critical and hostile? Point out the phase margin issue in a professional manner as food for thought. With the circuit that he has built, he hasn't run into problems thus far... He has posted that he's still working on it and will post results... What's the problem with that? If you feel the design should be different, change it, tell us why (hopefully), and post your results... Everyone here is extremely interested... Personally, I can't wait to actually build this thing once the bugs are worked out...
To the others on this forum I apologize for the space that I've taken regarding this subject. I'm just extremely tired of the current attitude that seems prevalent lately and am disappointed in how the feel of this board has changed...
Steve
Thank you for the link. I am very familiar with it since I too have been in contact with the individual who started that thread outside of this forum...
I would like to clarify that the design that was used for the boards in question were actually taken directly from the Aleph schematics by BrianGT. I am also extremely familiar with that project because I too was part of the group purchase and the review process of the boards and design in question...
Please review the following threads to familiarize yourself with exactly what Scott is using:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2942
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3143
I would like to very clear here - I have no doubt about H.H.'s technical expertise as I've posted above. I do however take offense to ANYONE not contributing to this forum in a professional and courteous manner. In my case, I am extremely busy both personally and professionally. When I read this forum it's with the intention to broaden my knowledge base and contribute when I can. I have no interest in reading posts back and forth that are the result of professional jealousy.
In this case, I singled out H.H. because the fact is he does create a lot of background noise. Contained in that noise are genuine nuggets of very valuable knowledge but frankly I'm tired of the condescending attitude. I have not seen one post where anyone has attacked, condescended, or questioned his knowledge in the manner that he consistently does to others on this board. There are all knowledge levels present here. While Nelson, H.H., Grey, Sonny, perhaps yourself, and others have forgotten more than I'll ever know regarding audio design, I always look forward to being able to post a question no matter how simplistic with the expectation that I'll receive a courteous not condescending answer. I do not expect to have answers handed to me on a silver platter, however, I do expect neutral posts that don't make myself or others feel foolish...
Finally, as I stated in my previous post - Grey took the time to take a shot at this circuit design. You, me, H.H., Sonny and most of the others have not... and for that I'm grateful... He's the only one who's done it so far... He was very clear that it was VERSION 1 AND HAD YET TO BE ACID TESTED...
Why so critical and hostile? Point out the phase margin issue in a professional manner as food for thought. With the circuit that he has built, he hasn't run into problems thus far... He has posted that he's still working on it and will post results... What's the problem with that? If you feel the design should be different, change it, tell us why (hopefully), and post your results... Everyone here is extremely interested... Personally, I can't wait to actually build this thing once the bugs are worked out...
To the others on this forum I apologize for the space that I've taken regarding this subject. I'm just extremely tired of the current attitude that seems prevalent lately and am disappointed in how the feel of this board has changed...
Steve