okapi said:
Assumming that one could and did make all the required measurements and that all environmental influence was removed. Given that the former has not yet been achieved...
And unlikely to be ever encoutered in real life. Even 2 closely matched drivers will never measure identically.
dave
okapi said:
It sounds a bit different when reading the last bit
Question is whether it is possible to measure EVERYTHING that goes on in a speaker
I believe that although we know more than we did years ago, there are aspects left that we still not yet fully understand
I find it interesting that a person with musicality who fully understands what goes on in an orchestra is able to hear more of the important details and "follow" the music better than a person who doesnt, hence better to "judge" the reproduced sound...I suppose thats part of what makes a good "recording-producer"
But the exact opposite is true! I have a good friend who is a concert pianist (Dickran Atamian if you want to look him up) who didn't even realize that his own recordings were clipping. I had to point it out to him. All he heard was the performance NOT the recording. After awhile he could hear these things, when he was trained to. He ended up buying my speaker so that he could listen to his recordings and really HEAR them. My brother is a professional jazz bassist he is incapable of hearing good sound, he only hears the music.
I have found that musicians don't give a toss about the sort of things that most 'audiophiles' agonise over. I recently spent time with a doctor of music and a professor of music who both make recordings of choirs. I was very interested in what their replay systems were, and one had an Aiwa the other some ordinary mid hifi set up, both had the speakers sold with their systems.
They were very concious of the fact that no matter what professional they employ to do the recording it never sounds the same to them as it does when they are conducting the choir. An audiophile would say, "no wonder with replay gear like that!" But the fact was that the changes made in the mixing studio (expensive replay gear) to get the sound they wanted was perfectly audible to them at home on both cheap systems.
I questioned them on why they didn't use High End gear and they basically said they have heard Hi End stuff but it doesn't give you any more music than a cheaper solution.
....................don't get me started on "DETAIL".
They were very concious of the fact that no matter what professional they employ to do the recording it never sounds the same to them as it does when they are conducting the choir. An audiophile would say, "no wonder with replay gear like that!" But the fact was that the changes made in the mixing studio (expensive replay gear) to get the sound they wanted was perfectly audible to them at home on both cheap systems.
I questioned them on why they didn't use High End gear and they basically said they have heard Hi End stuff but it doesn't give you any more music than a cheaper solution.
....................don't get me started on "DETAIL".
a.wayne said:
I use both and as I hear it vynl is not de facto better than CD.
Besides surface noise vynl suffers from colorations.
These come from resonances inherent in the physical method of getting that wiggly line in the vynl into an electrical signal.
A full range driver has real problems trying to cover the whole audio band, and a pickup cartridge has similar problems, no 3 ways here.
Add to this the resonances in the arm, platter, bearings, suspension etc and it is amazing it sounds as good as it does.
I could agree that vynl has a 'character' or 'tone' that CD does not have, but at the end of the day it is just colorations.
fredex said:
That is also very true...
But I didnt say anything about musicians...I said a person with "musicality"
It goes without saying that we are talking about a person who have a real dedicated interest in quality sound reproduction...nothing else would matter in this respect
A person who fully understands the true technical aspects of the "inside" of a speakers may also have an advantage over many others in judging the sound...that is if he is fully dedicated to sound quality
Combine the two, musicality and technical insight, and you have a good designer
fredex said:
Musicians has a very well trained filter in their ears/brains that will filter out everything that they dont want to hear so they can hear each detail clear as a day.
And to get back on topic, this filter is also the problem when we want to evaluate speakers by hearing. At the same time that we try to hear that something is wrong, the ear also tries to compensate for the errors.
Tinitus
Your use of the term "musicality" seems to mean whatever you want it to mean, because to me this word has always been applied to the performance not the reproduction. Admittedly I don't think that there really is such a word so you can make up any deffinition that you want, but I don't see how any knowledge of how music is performed is required to be a good speaker designer. It simply has nothing to do with the problems involved.
Your use of the term "musicality" seems to mean whatever you want it to mean, because to me this word has always been applied to the performance not the reproduction. Admittedly I don't think that there really is such a word so you can make up any deffinition that you want, but I don't see how any knowledge of how music is performed is required to be a good speaker designer. It simply has nothing to do with the problems involved.
Musicians, have an area of ultra quality interest and fine tuning obsession non the less, their own instruments. They don't really care about the total. That is the conductor's pain. Its just that they have this ability to hear their own performance detail, meaning their timing, phrasing, and notes precision, even in a mess. Be it a bad live foldback or a car radio with crappy speakers.
fredex said:
Musicians hear the music and there instruments from a completely
different position than those that are listening . So there perspective is different . Most so called "phile" systems are too small in sound with limited dynamics to even come close for them to appreciate.
fredex said:
Would have to strongly disagree , with both the analogy and the assumption on cd vs LP. I would think the limitation is in your playback , even the biggest of doubters when confronted with a listening session to compare come away impressed , i would say 8/10 @ a min . You very rarely get people in audio to agree over 5/10 on anything ....
A musician doesnt necessarily possess musicality...and a person with born musicality doesnt always become a musician
I still think that a person with born musicality listens differently and hears things in music that many others doesnt notice...but ofcourse it takes some practice and dedication
I still think that a person with born musicality listens differently and hears things in music that many others doesnt notice...but ofcourse it takes some practice and dedication
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