Hi,
Some thoughts about the monoliths and why BIB sounds good.
Could it be that the back sloping panel, in the original BIB, is the key? No or less reflection from backside, than most traditional speakers. In that case, the monolith could be worse sounding than BIB with back sloping panel. Coming from a newbie but makes sense. What are others opinon? In this case, these two versions must be built and compared.
BTW, my Monacors SPH60X have been almost finished. Assembled and lacquered this wekeend. Some soldering needed, then "completed"!?
Best Peter
Some thoughts about the monoliths and why BIB sounds good.
Could it be that the back sloping panel, in the original BIB, is the key? No or less reflection from backside, than most traditional speakers. In that case, the monolith could be worse sounding than BIB with back sloping panel. Coming from a newbie but makes sense. What are others opinon? In this case, these two versions must be built and compared.
BTW, my Monacors SPH60X have been almost finished. Assembled and lacquered this wekeend. Some soldering needed, then "completed"!?
Best Peter
Greets!
There is no 'optimum' per se WRT the BIB horn other than the driver choice, so the better the driver, the closer to 'optimum'. If you want one to go high enough to use your ceiling, then the driver needs to have a low Fs. No FR driver comes to mind with a low enough Fs, so what's your second choice?
GM
There is no 'optimum' per se WRT the BIB horn other than the driver choice, so the better the driver, the closer to 'optimum'. If you want one to go high enough to use your ceiling, then the driver needs to have a low Fs. No FR driver comes to mind with a low enough Fs, so what's your second choice?
GM
GM:
Thank you for your reply.
1. Please identify the best, second best, and third best drivers that have been modeled on the new BIB web site. I have no experience selecting drivers and can only judge based on price which is not a reliable criteria.
2. Are you implying that the BIB design is not suitable for rooms with 10' ceilings or that it will underperform in them?
3. Regarding my second choice, previously I had selected the ML TL you designed as built by Jim Griffin. Then I found this thread and became infected with its enthusiasm.
Confused,
Ray
Thank you for your reply.
1. Please identify the best, second best, and third best drivers that have been modeled on the new BIB web site. I have no experience selecting drivers and can only judge based on price which is not a reliable criteria.
2. Are you implying that the BIB design is not suitable for rooms with 10' ceilings or that it will underperform in them?
3. Regarding my second choice, previously I had selected the ML TL you designed as built by Jim Griffin. Then I found this thread and became infected with its enthusiasm.
Confused,
Ray
Pick a driver, any driver…
Not many have been built that I am aware of. Certainly not enough to note which works best.
If what GM says holds true: “There is no 'optimum' per se WRT the BIB horn other than the driver choice, so the better the driver, the closer to 'optimum'.” … then all we can do is buy the best driver we can afford and build.
As for your 10’ ceilings… well, at this time there’s just not enough info – that I am aware of. My office ceilings are between 10 and 12 feet high. I may build a BIB over 60” (Fostex 168) and hope for the best. At home I have chosen a smaller BIB (8’ ceilings) and will use the TB Bamboooooo…
If you’re looking for the Holy Grail… read the DaVinci Code. For now, I like my speakers flavored by the sound of Fostex… but if those Lowther’s sim well, I may start saving my pennies by cutting out the bagel every other morning.
Godzilla
www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp
Not many have been built that I am aware of. Certainly not enough to note which works best.
If what GM says holds true: “There is no 'optimum' per se WRT the BIB horn other than the driver choice, so the better the driver, the closer to 'optimum'.” … then all we can do is buy the best driver we can afford and build.
As for your 10’ ceilings… well, at this time there’s just not enough info – that I am aware of. My office ceilings are between 10 and 12 feet high. I may build a BIB over 60” (Fostex 168) and hope for the best. At home I have chosen a smaller BIB (8’ ceilings) and will use the TB Bamboooooo…
If you’re looking for the Holy Grail… read the DaVinci Code. For now, I like my speakers flavored by the sound of Fostex… but if those Lowther’s sim well, I may start saving my pennies by cutting out the bagel every other morning.
Godzilla
www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp
Greets!
You're welcome!
1. No can do for a variety of reasons, though if you can afford them, buy Lowther DX4 or one of its even more expensive 'clones' and we'll figure something out cab-wise.
2. I'm saying a folded BIB has to be very long to load a 10 ft high ceiling and this requires a low Fs driver, so yes, a standard length BIB will underperform.
3. Whole different design concept and no doubt very good for what it is (I haven't auditioned them), but its lack of efficiency/low power handling makes it a non-starter compared to a high efficiency (HE) BIB or other high gain design IMO, so as always YMMV.
GM
You're welcome!
1. No can do for a variety of reasons, though if you can afford them, buy Lowther DX4 or one of its even more expensive 'clones' and we'll figure something out cab-wise.
2. I'm saying a folded BIB has to be very long to load a 10 ft high ceiling and this requires a low Fs driver, so yes, a standard length BIB will underperform.
3. Whole different design concept and no doubt very good for what it is (I haven't auditioned them), but its lack of efficiency/low power handling makes it a non-starter compared to a high efficiency (HE) BIB or other high gain design IMO, so as always YMMV.
GM
GM
The height of the mouth that would cause problems WRT large ceilings not the tuning frequency itself. correct? (I know this is correlated directly in the standard BIB to tuning frequency).
If so...
due to the slow flare of the internal board the overall height can be changed by nearly 1 ft by lowering So 6 inches relative to the mouth without changing mouth size. A little putty might be needed to smooth out the opening (which has grown by the width of the board...3-3.5 degrees... .75 inch board). I have 9 ft ceilings and was going to do this with FE-166's. Possibly this weekend. The lowering of So by 6 inches would allow people with ceilings greater than 9ft to add a false base to bring it up to nearly 1.5 feet in overall length (circa 84 inches in overall height) with a hollow chamber at the base to load with sand/lead to keep the skinny tower reasonably upright.
Whatcha think?
Sean
The height of the mouth that would cause problems WRT large ceilings not the tuning frequency itself. correct? (I know this is correlated directly in the standard BIB to tuning frequency).
If so...
due to the slow flare of the internal board the overall height can be changed by nearly 1 ft by lowering So 6 inches relative to the mouth without changing mouth size. A little putty might be needed to smooth out the opening (which has grown by the width of the board...3-3.5 degrees... .75 inch board). I have 9 ft ceilings and was going to do this with FE-166's. Possibly this weekend. The lowering of So by 6 inches would allow people with ceilings greater than 9ft to add a false base to bring it up to nearly 1.5 feet in overall length (circa 84 inches in overall height) with a hollow chamber at the base to load with sand/lead to keep the skinny tower reasonably upright.
Whatcha think?
Sean
Godzilla:
Thanks for the input. Do I understand that of the Fostex drivers your choice is the FE168E Sigma?
Regarding The DaVinci Code.....it is not about searching for the holy grail but uncovering the secret of the Priory of Sion which holds proof that Jesus Christ had a child with his wife, Mary Magdalene, perpetuating his bloodline, etc. All fiction but a good read non-the-less.
GM:
Thanks for the input; I will begin a new search for a suitable design. Since this will be my first full range project I will try a design using a less expensive driver than the Lowther DX4. Perhaps one of the Fostex drivers or the CSS FR125S.
Thanks for the input. Do I understand that of the Fostex drivers your choice is the FE168E Sigma?
Regarding The DaVinci Code.....it is not about searching for the holy grail but uncovering the secret of the Priory of Sion which holds proof that Jesus Christ had a child with his wife, Mary Magdalene, perpetuating his bloodline, etc. All fiction but a good read non-the-less.
GM:
Thanks for the input; I will begin a new search for a suitable design. Since this will be my first full range project I will try a design using a less expensive driver than the Lowther DX4. Perhaps one of the Fostex drivers or the CSS FR125S.
Hi Ray!
If you want to be cheap
try the Monacor SPH60X. Sound quite good from the box and cost only 20 Euro here in Europe. They are awailable in US as far as I know. I have recently assembled the cabinets for the Monacors but have not been able to listen to them yet. BTW, I think Scottmoose have a pair.
Regards Peter
If you want to be cheap
try the Monacor SPH60X. Sound quite good from the box and cost only 20 Euro here in Europe. They are awailable in US as far as I know. I have recently assembled the cabinets for the Monacors but have not been able to listen to them yet. BTW, I think Scottmoose have a pair.Regards Peter
Indeed I have, though the cabs aren't finished yet. I'm taking them to the Eggfest in June. AFAICT, they are as good as the 1354 in the mids (bit darker) and bass, and easily beat them in the highs, though they need a bit of power compared to say, Fostex units. Fine as far as I'm concerned -I still like my SS amps as well as my valves.
If you want to spend a bit more but can't stretch to the FE168ESigmas, the FF165K is a terrific match.
Best
Scott
If you want to spend a bit more but can't stretch to the FE168ESigmas, the FF165K is a terrific match.
Best
Scott
>>> Regarding The DaVinci Code.....it is not about searching for the holy grail but uncovering the secret of the Priory of Sion which holds proof that Jesus Christ had a child with his wife, Mary Magdalene, perpetuating his bloodline, etc. All fiction but a good read non-the-less.
Last night my wife heard a creek and thought Silas was in the house. She’s trying to read the book before the movie comes out.
I do like Fostex drivers but have not tried them all. I have the 168S which is discontinued and replaced with the 168es… which some top off with a tweeter and some don’t. I’ve been told by a few we respect that no tweeter is necessary… but I like tweeters. I understand the newer 168 is more mellow sounding. If it is, it’s probably a great sounding driver.
As a suggestion, if you don’t want to spend the money on the 168, buy the 165, 166 or 167 and save the 168 as a driver upgrade for the same BIB.
Last night my wife heard a creek and thought Silas was in the house. She’s trying to read the book before the movie comes out.
I do like Fostex drivers but have not tried them all. I have the 168S which is discontinued and replaced with the 168es… which some top off with a tweeter and some don’t. I’ve been told by a few we respect that no tweeter is necessary… but I like tweeters. I understand the newer 168 is more mellow sounding. If it is, it’s probably a great sounding driver.
As a suggestion, if you don’t want to spend the money on the 168, buy the 165, 166 or 167 and save the 168 as a driver upgrade for the same BIB.
Ray Collins said:
some round here are hesitant to give an opinion here about a driver. mine - get a pair of fe206es-r from madisound. build a monster. be done with it. I know... they are supposed to go into a truncated design...perhaps bib might work better...that is, if you have the space(?) also, what matters perhaps more than ceiling height here is the internal volume of your entire room and reflectivity coefficient of various parts of your room, particularly ceilings and floors...
Clark
I think building what is a sort of utility BIB for 6 inchers, the plan for the Fostex line, start with the FE166E, and plan for the 168Sigma. The 168 has a very well established reputation. Out of all the single drivers I have rolled in the past three years, the 168 is right there as pretty much the one anyone could live with. It has a well known presence and unreal synergy with SET amps that bring out the very best in both. Adding a tweet is nice but I would say for holisitc musical enjoyment, not necessary. I have contoured and raised treble SPL with Rane RPM for a very flat-to-16KHz, honest 94db, and in its BIB works extremely well and with plenty of bass, with 2 watts of 45-SET magic, and sounds damn good on the ol Hafler 9505 I use in me keyboard rig, and enhanced speed, resolution, bass, with Vinnie Rossi's batTery amps, or any T amp it becomes a High Performance BIB, in my opinion; it ain't real fussy. I think many many people do not actually hear the native timbral qualities of this particular driver because, as Clark states, the banana fibre takes such a long time to really come into its own. I would say min 1000 hours and several seasons of barometric and humidity change. (I liked that suspicion of humidity and seasonal change, and agree So, for the cost of a pair of Fostex FE168Sigmae, and 2 sheets of 3/4 void free ply, hardwood ply is best, and you have a pair of seriously dangerously musical speakers which land further outside the "hobby" spectrum than about anything you can think of. The Fostex drivers represent fantastic value. So, if you really want to chase this thing, yes, get the 206 esr, and build The Big One, and live happy.8 inch Hemp cone too. These are fantastic music makers as well.
Got space? Make cuts for an 8 inch BIB
So, for the cost of a pair of Fostex FE168Sigmae, and 2 sheets of 3/4 void free ply, hardwood ply is best, and you have a pair of seriously dangerously musical speakers which land further outside the "hobby" spectrum than about anything you can think of. The Fostex drivers represent fantastic value. So, if you really want to chase this thing, yes, get the 206 esr, and build The Big One, and live happy.8 inch Hemp cone too. These are fantastic music makers as well. Got space? Make cuts for an 8 inch BIB
almost joking about 206esr...
about the 206es-r. I have not heard the 168eZ in BIB, (but have heard the 168eZ alot) but I would venture to say that it would be perhaps the ideal driver for this cabinet style. it is well established, and a good compromize of all things possible. build without metal fastener from nice plywood, the cabinet has good tone. if we read up on the "attachment of omine nut" sutra from japanese websites, we find further improvement. the brass rings, further improvement. chamfering of the inside hole of the baffle, further improvement. I personally find super tweeter unnecessary on the 168, and I have pretty good hearing, owing to my age and careful listening habits. however, I can totally see why some would desire one. I personally find imaging far more addictive than absolute detail and flatness.
the 206esr would be extreme no doubt. perhaps unnecessary.
I am still continually floored by the performance that the 166es-r is dishing out too though. it is so relaxing. it is really showing the flaws of my room bass wize.
yeah, the banana plant fibre stuff is really cool I think. it harkens to an age old debate of instant versus delayed gratification. vintage fostex stuff sounds so different by comparison. settles down way quicker, sounds blacker. course, I am speaking of various versions of the 103 in varying ages of paper cone versus the new 103 banana. my conclusion - all compromises.
Clark
about the 206es-r. I have not heard the 168eZ in BIB, (but have heard the 168eZ alot) but I would venture to say that it would be perhaps the ideal driver for this cabinet style. it is well established, and a good compromize of all things possible. build without metal fastener from nice plywood, the cabinet has good tone. if we read up on the "attachment of omine nut" sutra from japanese websites, we find further improvement. the brass rings, further improvement. chamfering of the inside hole of the baffle, further improvement. I personally find super tweeter unnecessary on the 168, and I have pretty good hearing, owing to my age and careful listening habits. however, I can totally see why some would desire one. I personally find imaging far more addictive than absolute detail and flatness.
the 206esr would be extreme no doubt. perhaps unnecessary.
I am still continually floored by the performance that the 166es-r is dishing out too though. it is so relaxing. it is really showing the flaws of my room bass wize.
yeah, the banana plant fibre stuff is really cool I think. it harkens to an age old debate of instant versus delayed gratification. vintage fostex stuff sounds so different by comparison. settles down way quicker, sounds blacker. course, I am speaking of various versions of the 103 in varying ages of paper cone versus the new 103 banana. my conclusion - all compromises.
Clark
Thanks to the collegium--Peter, Scottmoose, 'Zilla, Clark and dmason--for your response. It was greatly needed and very much appreciated. I was getting discouraged after all of the research and almost dreaded starting over.
Tonight I will think it through and select a driver. I have an adequate amount of 3/4" MDF on hand that I can use if I start with the FE166E. Does this make sense or does the mdf undermine the FE166E project? When I uprgade to the FE168's I would use 3/4" void free plywood for the enclosures.
I need a pair of rear speakers for my small HT....do you think that the FE166E's would work for that application after I replace them with the FE 168's?
Thanks again,
Ray
Tonight I will think it through and select a driver. I have an adequate amount of 3/4" MDF on hand that I can use if I start with the FE166E. Does this make sense or does the mdf undermine the FE166E project? When I uprgade to the FE168's I would use 3/4" void free plywood for the enclosures.
I need a pair of rear speakers for my small HT....do you think that the FE166E's would work for that application after I replace them with the FE 168's?
Thanks again,
Ray