Seriously? Not even a little?!? Wow. In my system, the difference between Kimber and DNM is staggering, I'm not the only one who can hear it there either! But, in my case we are talking about:
-totally different geometry
-hugely different wire gauge
-semi-stranded(?) vs solid-core
-teflon vs polyethylene insulation
-well-made vs slightly tarnished copper under dialectric
I think my change was similar to an amplifier or interconnect change ie. quite noticeable, but not like room or speaker change. Recently, I replaced the short runs of standard wire in the amp from pcb to terminals, with same type as sp. cable. I daren't boldy say there was an improvement...
-Simon
Then try twist three or four CAt 5 runs together,connecting all whites for "-" and all colours from all runs for "+".
This gives good sounding Cat 5 cable.Low iductance and resistance but terrible capacity.No chance GC will work with it.
Zobel will help but still at high volume levels it will be oscilating.
Bartek
This gives good sounding Cat 5 cable.Low iductance and resistance but terrible capacity.No chance GC will work with it.
Zobel will help but still at high volume levels it will be oscilating.
Bartek
The closer "+" and "-" are tweasted together the less inductance and more capacitance you get.
Let's say if you take two runs of cable and tweast them together.
Connecting all 8 white for "-" and all 8 colors for "+" will give you higher capacity then connecting all wires from one cable for "+" and all wires from other for "-".
In both cases braiding more runs (4,6..) will give more capacity again (less resistance at the same time).
The problem is I find that more runs sounds better (4 or 6).
Also connecting all whites for "-" and all colours for "+",too
But that gives highly capacitance cable.
If you take 4 runs and connect them that way you get some 500-550pF/meter capacity.My GC with this cable is cracking (oscillations) even at lowest volume levels.
At least on my speakers.
Bartek
Let's say if you take two runs of cable and tweast them together.
Connecting all 8 white for "-" and all 8 colors for "+" will give you higher capacity then connecting all wires from one cable for "+" and all wires from other for "-".
In both cases braiding more runs (4,6..) will give more capacity again (less resistance at the same time).
The problem is I find that more runs sounds better (4 or 6).
Also connecting all whites for "-" and all colours for "+",too
But that gives highly capacitance cable.
If you take 4 runs and connect them that way you get some 500-550pF/meter capacity.My GC with this cable is cracking (oscillations) even at lowest volume levels.
At least on my speakers.
Bartek
Hi,
Transistor amps, in general, don't much like too high capacitance on their outputs regardless of the speakers.
Tube amps handle that differently thanks to the OPT.
I think a speaker cable of moderate capacitance and inductance is a good compromise overall...YMMV.
Quite often I prefer a simple twisted pair; it has moderate industance and is not too capacitive. It also has some EMI cancellation built right in.
Cheers,
Transistor amps, in general, don't much like too high capacitance on their outputs regardless of the speakers.
Tube amps handle that differently thanks to the OPT.
I think a speaker cable of moderate capacitance and inductance is a good compromise overall...YMMV.
Quite often I prefer a simple twisted pair; it has moderate industance and is not too capacitive. It also has some EMI cancellation built right in.
Cheers,
How can a cable sound better by driving the amplifier into oscillation? Working for days twisting all those runs together to get what?
Many so called hi-end LS cables do actually sound different (not always better) because of their high capacity. The amps are fighting with them literally, some better some worse. Maybe some amps behave only civilized, maybe only listenable, because they are "tamed" by high capacity cables.
Maybe ClassA amps like the Zens or the Alephs do not care so much about cables, like tube amps do. I heard them also sounding good with pretty basic stuff.
What is the problem with a little inductance?
A loudspeaker cable in a high-feedback amp (like the gainclone) is a even more vital part of the circuit and in my opinion the amp has to be designed with a specific cable (or cable type) in mind. I really like the Naim Audio approach: Leave out the nasty output inductor and substitute its inductivity with the inductivity of the cable itself. Together with a damping factor smoothing output resistor (wirewound and NOT MOX!) it takes the cable as a part of the circuit and at the same time reduces its negative effects (caused by longer runs, better would be no cable at all).
I wrote it already somewhere but my Naim clones sound best with Naim cable (ha!) and with similar types of thick multistranded copper or silver. This amps do not like the CAT5 cable versions at all, and it is quite similar with my Cyrus1 and big NAD amps in my studio.
Although I definitely hear big differences between LS cables it is often hard to tell which is actually better. Annoyed by the often really ridiculous prices of cables I was tempted to make ridculously cheap DIY counterparts. I tried many types yet, here only a short list:
1. power cables, multistranded 0.75mm2: forget it
2. power cables for installation, 1.5mm2 solid core copper, two runs slightly twisted (5x per meter): not bad at all
3. ennameld copper wire 1mm dia (transformer wire) twisted (ca. 25x per meter): very good
4. CAT5 single pairs (multistranded): forget it
5. CAT5 single pairs (solid core): better, but still not great
6. CAT5 8 pairs (solid core): better, but problems start (oscillation); did not like the sound anyway
7. cotton insulated copper wire (from ?) 1mm dia twisted: very good, my gainclones love it
8. a cable made out of a professional coaxial cable by using both the copper core (7 strands) and the copper stranded shielding, maybe 1mm2, parallel run no twisting: very good, my gainclones love it, the Cyrus likes it too, but my Naimclones hate it...
9. two runs of 0.4mm uninsulated silver wire, insulated by air (with the help of a loose teflon tube): very good with the gainclones, less with the other amps
and so on, and so on...
I do not like CAT5 cables anymore, I stopped working with them for LS cables. They serve much better as network cables between my computers. Maybe some CATX with better insulation materials will sound better, but I will only do any more experiments if I get hold of some by chance (and for free).
But I can wholeheartly recommend to experiment with all types of different solid core cables, also with others. Take what you can get and fit it into your system and listen to it. Do not wait for the Gurus to tell you the hype of the day. If you still like CAT5, then OK. It is so easy to make cables and try them.
And: After your cable is the very long wire of the xover...
Klaus
ps: Many high capacity ls cables are rejected by professional users because the do not meet the basic specs for recording studios; there is an ongoing debate in the pro forums.
pps:I once saw a very thick (must have been 5cm diameter or more) and incredibly expensive looking cable on a hifi show in vienna, and they had it suspended on specific blocks that it did not touch the carpet. Oh Holy cable!
Many so called hi-end LS cables do actually sound different (not always better) because of their high capacity. The amps are fighting with them literally, some better some worse. Maybe some amps behave only civilized, maybe only listenable, because they are "tamed" by high capacity cables.
Maybe ClassA amps like the Zens or the Alephs do not care so much about cables, like tube amps do. I heard them also sounding good with pretty basic stuff.
What is the problem with a little inductance?
A loudspeaker cable in a high-feedback amp (like the gainclone) is a even more vital part of the circuit and in my opinion the amp has to be designed with a specific cable (or cable type) in mind. I really like the Naim Audio approach: Leave out the nasty output inductor and substitute its inductivity with the inductivity of the cable itself. Together with a damping factor smoothing output resistor (wirewound and NOT MOX!) it takes the cable as a part of the circuit and at the same time reduces its negative effects (caused by longer runs, better would be no cable at all).
I wrote it already somewhere but my Naim clones sound best with Naim cable (ha!) and with similar types of thick multistranded copper or silver. This amps do not like the CAT5 cable versions at all, and it is quite similar with my Cyrus1 and big NAD amps in my studio.
Although I definitely hear big differences between LS cables it is often hard to tell which is actually better. Annoyed by the often really ridiculous prices of cables I was tempted to make ridculously cheap DIY counterparts. I tried many types yet, here only a short list:
1. power cables, multistranded 0.75mm2: forget it
2. power cables for installation, 1.5mm2 solid core copper, two runs slightly twisted (5x per meter): not bad at all
3. ennameld copper wire 1mm dia (transformer wire) twisted (ca. 25x per meter): very good
4. CAT5 single pairs (multistranded): forget it
5. CAT5 single pairs (solid core): better, but still not great
6. CAT5 8 pairs (solid core): better, but problems start (oscillation); did not like the sound anyway
7. cotton insulated copper wire (from ?) 1mm dia twisted: very good, my gainclones love it
8. a cable made out of a professional coaxial cable by using both the copper core (7 strands) and the copper stranded shielding, maybe 1mm2, parallel run no twisting: very good, my gainclones love it, the Cyrus likes it too, but my Naimclones hate it...
9. two runs of 0.4mm uninsulated silver wire, insulated by air (with the help of a loose teflon tube): very good with the gainclones, less with the other amps
and so on, and so on...
I do not like CAT5 cables anymore, I stopped working with them for LS cables. They serve much better as network cables between my computers. Maybe some CATX with better insulation materials will sound better, but I will only do any more experiments if I get hold of some by chance (and for free).
But I can wholeheartly recommend to experiment with all types of different solid core cables, also with others. Take what you can get and fit it into your system and listen to it. Do not wait for the Gurus to tell you the hype of the day. If you still like CAT5, then OK. It is so easy to make cables and try them.
And: After your cable is the very long wire of the xover...
Klaus
ps: Many high capacity ls cables are rejected by professional users because the do not meet the basic specs for recording studios; there is an ongoing debate in the pro forums.
pps:I once saw a very thick (must have been 5cm diameter or more) and incredibly expensive looking cable on a hifi show in vienna, and they had it suspended on specific blocks that it did not touch the carpet. Oh Holy cable!
Thanks for your answers.
I too don't like Cat 5 cables any more.As I stated before,there is some level of performance that you just won't go higher and the best performance Cat 5 cables are high capacity (read more runs and tweasting) which couses many problems with amplifiers so why bother?
Original Gain Card might use Cat 5 or whatever but it doesn't mean it wouldn't perform better with other cable.
Bartek
I too don't like Cat 5 cables any more.As I stated before,there is some level of performance that you just won't go higher and the best performance Cat 5 cables are high capacity (read more runs and tweasting) which couses many problems with amplifiers so why bother?
Original Gain Card might use Cat 5 or whatever but it doesn't mean it wouldn't perform better with other cable.
Bartek
Polyethylene insulation is quite ok to my ear, and Teflon sucks bigtime IMO.SimontY said:
In my understanding different insulation materials absorb and return energy in different amounts, and absorb and return energy in differing spectrums.
Teflon is relatively low loss, but the spectral nature of the return energy is not agreeable to my ears, or colleagues.
The degree of energy loss in an insulator is not actually all that important, but the spectral characteristics ARE paramount for pleasing sonics.
Eric.
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