Re: Al you gain in a car is ?
Patrick Bateman's in- and outdoor measurements seem to show this, aldough I am suprised about this. I always tought the cabin gain came from pressurizing at those low freq and it seems to me a tapped horn has a built-in "short cirquit" between the front and back of the driver, below cutoff. So I'd expected this to work only for closed box variants. OTOH, it also works for a bassreflex below cutoff ... why didn't i see this earlier?
The drop in tuning freq in a car is interresting for my BLH. So i might get till 25-ish instead of 30hz and if the backpressure on the mouth is higher than Hornresp models, i even might get less ripples than I catered for!
Do you have some more information or websites about your 1/4WL enclosures?
It is a pity this thread is about tapped horns and I want to go backloaded horn style. I am waiting for my uncle - who is a capenter - to make some time to cut my panels/angles, but in the mean while I think here is some good info to gather here.
Volenti said:
Patrick Bateman's in- and outdoor measurements seem to show this, aldough I am suprised about this. I always tought the cabin gain came from pressurizing at those low freq and it seems to me a tapped horn has a built-in "short cirquit" between the front and back of the driver, below cutoff. So I'd expected this to work only for closed box variants. OTOH, it also works for a bassreflex below cutoff ... why didn't i see this earlier?
The drop in tuning freq in a car is interresting for my BLH. So i might get till 25-ish instead of 30hz and if the backpressure on the mouth is higher than Hornresp models, i even might get less ripples than I catered for!
Do you have some more information or websites about your 1/4WL enclosures?
Exactly what I am doing now with my headunit (3100)! May i ask at what volume setting you get this 22 watts? (Assuming this is the unclipped peak.) I never turned it up past 40 and last time I checked I got 115dB peak without sub, so only highs and mids.mwmkravchenko said:
It is a pity this thread is about tapped horns and I want to go backloaded horn style. I am waiting for my uncle - who is a capenter - to make some time to cut my panels/angles, but in the mean while I think here is some good info to gather here.
Re: Re: Al you gain in a car is ?
There's nothing special about my enclosures, they are just basic straight or tapered transmission lines, it's their response in the car that lets you get away with lines that are far shorter than you would think could work, some have been less than a meter long! (though heavily stuffed)
I have a largish tapped horn using a 12'' with a very strong motor planned for construction soon, I will do some in and out of car tests when it's constructed.
Cordraconis said:
Do you have some more information or websites about your 1/4WL enclosures?
There's nothing special about my enclosures, they are just basic straight or tapered transmission lines, it's their response in the car that lets you get away with lines that are far shorter than you would think could work, some have been less than a meter long! (though heavily stuffed)
I have a largish tapped horn using a 12'' with a very strong motor planned for construction soon, I will do some in and out of car tests when it's constructed.
Turn it up!
Cordraconis wrote:
Keep this in mind that I listen to exclusively classical music from Copland and Respighi to Bach and some renaisance masters.
I set the max volume on around 54 to 56 when listening to a large pipe organ or large orchestral recording. There are enormous peaks in classical music that you will never experience with pop stuff. If I try that volume level with a radio station I will buy stock in hearing aid companies. WHAT???
Tonight is the glue up if I get enough work accomplished today. A cabinet makers work is never done.
Mark
Cordraconis wrote:
Keep this in mind that I listen to exclusively classical music from Copland and Respighi to Bach and some renaisance masters.
I set the max volume on around 54 to 56 when listening to a large pipe organ or large orchestral recording. There are enormous peaks in classical music that you will never experience with pop stuff. If I try that volume level with a radio station I will buy stock in hearing aid companies. WHAT???
Tonight is the glue up if I get enough work accomplished today. A cabinet makers work is never done.
Mark
A pic or two before I go to the shop.
It all begins with some tape and glue
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0159.jpg
Along the line exterior
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0154.jpg
Stick glue here.
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0155.jpg
Fold up and lay down. It's kind of like origami.
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0165.jpg
Some weighty thoughts.
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0170.jpg
Well there are more pics but this is enough to show how I glue these things up. I guess they are not to bad considering they are taken with a cell phone.
I'll work on the plan a bit today and scan and post that to. Still have to apply the other flat side. I think I will do this with screws and foam stripping to properly seal the box. There's no way to get the inner driver out easliy as this is a very small enclosure.
But first there has been some wiring and mounting of the drivers. Have to test out some padding and no padding as well. The odessey begins.
Mark
It all begins with some tape and glue
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0159.jpg
Along the line exterior
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0154.jpg
Stick glue here.
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0155.jpg
Fold up and lay down. It's kind of like origami.
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0165.jpg
Some weighty thoughts.
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/IMAG0170.jpg
Well there are more pics but this is enough to show how I glue these things up. I guess they are not to bad considering they are taken with a cell phone.
I'll work on the plan a bit today and scan and post that to. Still have to apply the other flat side. I think I will do this with screws and foam stripping to properly seal the box. There's no way to get the inner driver out easliy as this is a very small enclosure.
But first there has been some wiring and mounting of the drivers. Have to test out some padding and no padding as well. The odessey begins.
Mark
You mean this piece of liberated CP Main Line?
Yep this little thing weighs about 80lbs or about 37 kg. It's as close to heavy metal as I get
Beats leaning on it overnight.
I use PL Premium contruction adhesive to bond the large flats onto the horn outline. The trick is that it expands as it cures so if you don't nail it or hold it down the glue expands and the joint is very weak. If you keep it under some pressure it works like a charm. The plus is that the resulting horn structure is really airtight. Very important in horn design as well as closed or vented box designs.
Mark
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yep this little thing weighs about 80lbs or about 37 kg. It's as close to heavy metal as I get
Beats leaning on it overnight.
I use PL Premium contruction adhesive to bond the large flats onto the horn outline. The trick is that it expands as it cures so if you don't nail it or hold it down the glue expands and the joint is very weak. If you keep it under some pressure it works like a charm. The plus is that the resulting horn structure is really airtight. Very important in horn design as well as closed or vented box designs.
Mark
I've used PL Premium on a number of projects and I like the way it works. For smaller gaps you can use Gorilla Glue which is also polyurethane glue with a viscosity very close to honey or syrup. It'll creep and wick into really small areas and then foam-up as it cures like the PL. Very tough stuff if you're not in a hurry.
I also try to make sure the mating surfaces are either freshly cut and/or sanded and wiped down with a damp sponge/rag. This makes sure they are clean and with open pores to accept the glue. A little added moisture speeds along the curing as well.
I'd prefer to use screws at least until the curing is complete if the aesthetic is acceptable. You can then pull them out and do filling / milling of the edges.
Still, I've had many a time where a good chunk of CP Rail would have been mighty handy!
I also try to make sure the mating surfaces are either freshly cut and/or sanded and wiped down with a damp sponge/rag. This makes sure they are clean and with open pores to accept the glue. A little added moisture speeds along the curing as well.
I'd prefer to use screws at least until the curing is complete if the aesthetic is acceptable. You can then pull them out and do filling / milling of the edges.
Still, I've had many a time where a good chunk of CP Rail would have been mighty handy!
Rail Bag of sand etc
If you don't have the weight of a rail you can buy bags of sand at building suppliers for next to nothing. It works really well to. THe other thing is packing tape. If you dust the wood off you can apply quite a bit of pressure to things by tapping the top of the piece, pulling it over the edge , slightly stretch it and tape it down under tension. I do a lot of solid wood edge banding this way.
As for polyurethane glues they are great but they like to stick to you for a week or so. My advice is to wear gloves when working with them. When I do exterior work I use polyurethane liquid. I have tried a few but not gorilla glue.
Some of the reasons why it takes so long to make loudspeakers. I have to make a living doing other stuff!
Mark
If you don't have the weight of a rail you can buy bags of sand at building suppliers for next to nothing. It works really well to. THe other thing is packing tape. If you dust the wood off you can apply quite a bit of pressure to things by tapping the top of the piece, pulling it over the edge , slightly stretch it and tape it down under tension. I do a lot of solid wood edge banding this way.
As for polyurethane glues they are great but they like to stick to you for a week or so. My advice is to wear gloves when working with them. When I do exterior work I use polyurethane liquid. I have tried a few but not gorilla glue.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Some of the reasons why it takes so long to make loudspeakers. I have to make a living doing other stuff!
Mark
OK back to topic Tapped horn pics from this morning
Scale idea check out the glue bottle.
Height and width pics
Now if I can just find the foam weather stripping I will mount the drivers. Then see what this puppy can do. If not I get the weather stripping tomorrow.
Mark
Scale idea check out the glue bottle.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Height and width pics
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Now if I can just find the foam weather stripping I will mount the drivers. Then see what this puppy can do. If not I get the weather stripping tomorrow.
Mark
Have Weathr stripping Will Travel
She's alive!
Ok first impressions are that it has to breakin. But over a ten minute work out where I fiddled with the wiring and such it got progressively better. No stuffing and that is something that I will play with. Not going to go down to the basement of bass but it's not bad at all. Will play around more tomorrow.
To test it is going to be a pain. I lost my "D" Drive due to a mix of nasty things and all my test and measurement stuff was on there. Nice test tone discs at 1/12 octave intervals and such all gone due to a repartition gone wrong. But I will do some basic testing over the next few days. And see what I can resurect off of the dead drive. Definitely worth the effort.
Will post plans after the measurements.
Mark
She's alive!
Ok first impressions are that it has to breakin. But over a ten minute work out where I fiddled with the wiring and such it got progressively better. No stuffing and that is something that I will play with. Not going to go down to the basement of bass but it's not bad at all. Will play around more tomorrow.
To test it is going to be a pain. I lost my "D" Drive due to a mix of nasty things and all my test and measurement stuff was on there. Nice test tone discs at 1/12 octave intervals and such all gone due to a repartition gone wrong. But I will do some basic testing over the next few days. And see what I can resurect off of the dead drive. Definitely worth the effort.
Will post plans after the measurements.
Mark
Subjective impressions
Ok spent a bit of the morning listening to this little thing. Once I compensate for the difference in efficiencies between the tapped horn and the Front loaded load there are some interesting things happening.
First off the tuba 18 always bothered me with a 50 to 80 hz peak in it's response. I even yried to eq it out. But it always reared it's ugly head. I changed from a normal vented box to the tuba to get a cleaner low end. It was a big step up. I think I'm finally there with this tapped horn sub. Very clean low bass. No exagerated bump in the response. It reminds me of sittting in the back row of the band and hearing the tympani and the bass drum. There when called upon only. So this is a demonstrator. A proof of concept. I really didn't think that a horn this small could work.
The tapped horn has the characteristics that make most horn systems the holy grail of low end. If there is no low end there you don't get any. If there is you do. It's the death of one note bass. It takes a bit of getting used to. We all listen to sub systems that trade clean output for distorted output the lower we go in frequency. The rule of thumb is that for every halving of frequency or dropping an octave you need four times the excursion. Unfortunately our ears can be decieved by thinking the upper harmonics of the note being reproduced are the actual note being played. I mean really how many of us use 4pc 15" drivers in our living room to produce the low end. But that is really the minimum required for truly flat response from midrange down to the nether reaches in most modern living rooms.
My first tests were a large Pipe Organ CD with Jean Guillou doing Pictures at an Exhibition on Dorian Recordings. Even the kids admit this is a killer CD. The tapped horn has no real output below 35hz. But keep in mind that this sub is designed to operate in a passband from 160 hz down to 40hz. THe most striking thing I noticed was the clarity of complex bass passages. Pedal trills or rapidly playing one note then another in a warbling tone are very clear on the tapped horn. They are not on the Tuba sub. When I listened to the sub quickly last night I thought there was something amiss. Not loud enough. So this morning I adjusted the gains on the sub amp and gave it another go.
This is why we simulate and play with loudspeaker designs on computers for hours. This is why I suck up sawdust and burn my fingers with the bleeping hot glue gun. Music comes out of these boxes. No mattter how many I build I never seem to be used to the idea that music comes out of a cone and a box. And I like it. I like it alot!
I will get some calibrated test tones on a CD and do some testing over the next few days. I hope tonight to have an efficiency figure. Then I will have to perform the torture tests aka maximum SPL and see what happens. When these things are all worked out I will post plans if anybody is interested.
Mark
Ok spent a bit of the morning listening to this little thing. Once I compensate for the difference in efficiencies between the tapped horn and the Front loaded load there are some interesting things happening.
First off the tuba 18 always bothered me with a 50 to 80 hz peak in it's response. I even yried to eq it out. But it always reared it's ugly head. I changed from a normal vented box to the tuba to get a cleaner low end. It was a big step up. I think I'm finally there with this tapped horn sub. Very clean low bass. No exagerated bump in the response. It reminds me of sittting in the back row of the band and hearing the tympani and the bass drum. There when called upon only. So this is a demonstrator. A proof of concept. I really didn't think that a horn this small could work.
The tapped horn has the characteristics that make most horn systems the holy grail of low end. If there is no low end there you don't get any. If there is you do. It's the death of one note bass. It takes a bit of getting used to. We all listen to sub systems that trade clean output for distorted output the lower we go in frequency. The rule of thumb is that for every halving of frequency or dropping an octave you need four times the excursion. Unfortunately our ears can be decieved by thinking the upper harmonics of the note being reproduced are the actual note being played. I mean really how many of us use 4pc 15" drivers in our living room to produce the low end. But that is really the minimum required for truly flat response from midrange down to the nether reaches in most modern living rooms.
My first tests were a large Pipe Organ CD with Jean Guillou doing Pictures at an Exhibition on Dorian Recordings. Even the kids admit this is a killer CD. The tapped horn has no real output below 35hz. But keep in mind that this sub is designed to operate in a passband from 160 hz down to 40hz. THe most striking thing I noticed was the clarity of complex bass passages. Pedal trills or rapidly playing one note then another in a warbling tone are very clear on the tapped horn. They are not on the Tuba sub. When I listened to the sub quickly last night I thought there was something amiss. Not loud enough. So this morning I adjusted the gains on the sub amp and gave it another go.
This is why we simulate and play with loudspeaker designs on computers for hours. This is why I suck up sawdust and burn my fingers with the bleeping hot glue gun. Music comes out of these boxes. No mattter how many I build I never seem to be used to the idea that music comes out of a cone and a box. And I like it. I like it alot!
I will get some calibrated test tones on a CD and do some testing over the next few days. I hope tonight to have an efficiency figure. Then I will have to perform the torture tests aka maximum SPL and see what happens. When these things are all worked out I will post plans if anybody is interested.
Mark
Re: Subjective impressions
We'll have to agree to disagree that it's a TH beyond that it's an acoustically efficient way to lay out a 6th order BP, so from this POV it should perform well.
This is a truism and why I upgraded to a stereo pair 40+ years ago at the first opportunity, only changing their tuning as required to blend well with whatever room they were in:
GM
mwmkravchenko said:
We'll have to agree to disagree that it's a TH beyond that it's an acoustically efficient way to lay out a 6th order BP, so from this POV it should perform well.
This is a truism and why I upgraded to a stereo pair 40+ years ago at the first opportunity, only changing their tuning as required to blend well with whatever room they were in:
GM
Attachments
Greets!
You're a horn designer, so I'm surprised you would consider it one since the horn's way too small/short to be other than a low Q expanding vent. Regardless, thanks for sharing, it's a neat project, though I suppose it should be in the car audio forum.
Yeah, had eight with four in a pair of ~70-500 Hz compression horns, but life 'happens' and right now all I have are my old subs that started life in '69 with a couple of old Altec horns perched on top. Anything but optimized, but still pretty impressive in a '50s high end HIFI sort of way.
No, I don't and it's one of those long, sad soap opera scripts as to why, though I did cobble together a 'bargain basement' Unity concept many years ago using a pair of RS 4" 'FR' drivers and a piezo horn that worked well enough to make me a believer of both it and the TH variant that followed even though it couldn't do the most important part, be completely time/phase aligned. If I ever get to make another big rig for myself it will be a Unity concept one assuming something better doesn't come along in the meantime.
Agreed, most of the DIY THs are simple driver-in-mouth pipe horns which perform virtually identically in the LF BW to the offset driver Voigt style pipe horns I've done, so very familiar with their performance benefits, though until MJK's, DB's and a few other DIYers recent keen interest in TLs, etc. due to their software efforts and especially DSL's products, their virtues have been pretty much limited to the 'FR' forum crowd.
GM
You're a horn designer, so I'm surprised you would consider it one since the horn's way too small/short to be other than a low Q expanding vent. Regardless, thanks for sharing, it's a neat project, though I suppose it should be in the car audio forum.
Yeah, had eight with four in a pair of ~70-500 Hz compression horns, but life 'happens' and right now all I have are my old subs that started life in '69 with a couple of old Altec horns perched on top. Anything but optimized, but still pretty impressive in a '50s high end HIFI sort of way.
No, I don't and it's one of those long, sad soap opera scripts as to why, though I did cobble together a 'bargain basement' Unity concept many years ago using a pair of RS 4" 'FR' drivers and a piezo horn that worked well enough to make me a believer of both it and the TH variant that followed even though it couldn't do the most important part, be completely time/phase aligned. If I ever get to make another big rig for myself it will be a Unity concept one assuming something better doesn't come along in the meantime.
Agreed, most of the DIY THs are simple driver-in-mouth pipe horns which perform virtually identically in the LF BW to the offset driver Voigt style pipe horns I've done, so very familiar with their performance benefits, though until MJK's, DB's and a few other DIYers recent keen interest in TLs, etc. due to their software efforts and especially DSL's products, their virtues have been pretty much limited to the 'FR' forum crowd.
GM
A horn if I could find a point. It has a mouth.
Greg said:
I think that you are right to a degree. I get the frequency response predicted by Hornresponse but the gain a true horn would net is not there I believe. A graph of the the impedance will tell me something about that. So I have to reinstall WT3 and do a quick and dirty effort on that. The path length is about 40" so even as a 1/4 wavelength resonator it is to short to pull off the low end that it does. I seriously wonder how long the DSL Tapped Horn Mini is. That is pretty much the design that I was trying to emulate. And I think that I have at least 95db/watt efficiency. Which is about 10 db less than the Tuba that I hope to kick out of the back seat. Measurement will tell the truth on this one.
Alas my hard drive sagga is that what was pulled off has some use. I got my music files but the bulk of my engineering programs have gone the way of the dodo. I'll have to use a backup copy from february. All the simulations for this box are gone to.
That being said the aim of this project is to make something as small as possible be as clean as possible. Horn like? I can't give anymore info on the measurements because I have my kids this weekend and they get my time when they get up. Two boys 15 and 14. We all have our sagas mixed with stupidity+ soap opera. LOL because it's better than crying.
Mark
P.S. My son said " Dad it's so small but it goes down so low! Maybe if we water it , it will grow!"
Greg said:
I think that you are right to a degree. I get the frequency response predicted by Hornresponse but the gain a true horn would net is not there I believe. A graph of the the impedance will tell me something about that. So I have to reinstall WT3 and do a quick and dirty effort on that. The path length is about 40" so even as a 1/4 wavelength resonator it is to short to pull off the low end that it does. I seriously wonder how long the DSL Tapped Horn Mini is. That is pretty much the design that I was trying to emulate. And I think that I have at least 95db/watt efficiency. Which is about 10 db less than the Tuba that I hope to kick out of the back seat. Measurement will tell the truth on this one.
Alas my hard drive sagga is that what was pulled off has some use. I got my music files but the bulk of my engineering programs have gone the way of the dodo. I'll have to use a backup copy from february. All the simulations for this box are gone to.
That being said the aim of this project is to make something as small as possible be as clean as possible. Horn like? I can't give anymore info on the measurements because I have my kids this weekend and they get my time when they get up. Two boys 15 and 14. We all have our sagas mixed with stupidity+ soap opera. LOL because it's better than crying.
Mark
P.S. My son said " Dad it's so small but it goes down so low! Maybe if we water it , it will grow!"
Re: A horn if I could find a point. It has a mouth.
Hmm, what I see is what you ~simmed, a reverse tapered TL mass loading a very short expanding 'horn stub' vent similar to at least one of the '50s era simple corner horns, so even with a suitable corner, 'horn-like' seems the most appropriate description and why I recommend some form of TL or BP whenever practical, which is more often than not.
No personal knowledge, but I believe it has a lot of wood crammed inside it.
Bummer, about the HD problems, reminds me I need to do some backing up, computer D&C before a similar fate befalls me as I've been pre-occupied with other stuff for awhile now.
Yeah, I believe Thoreau 'hit the nail on the head' when he quipped that "most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them".
Anyway, looking forward to the measurements and hopefully a bunch of folks will be motivated enough to build it and/or adapt its concept to a wide variety of drivers/apps as has happened with the various 'BVR' and 'BIB' pipe horns.
GM
mwmkravchenko said:The path length is about 40"
I seriously wonder how long the DSL Tapped Horn Mini is.
Alas my hard drive sagga is that what was pulled off has some use.
That being said the aim of this project is to make something as small as possible be as clean as possible. Horn like?
We all have our sagas mixed with stupidity+ soap opera. LOL because it's better than crying.
Hmm, what I see is what you ~simmed, a reverse tapered TL mass loading a very short expanding 'horn stub' vent similar to at least one of the '50s era simple corner horns, so even with a suitable corner, 'horn-like' seems the most appropriate description and why I recommend some form of TL or BP whenever practical, which is more often than not.
No personal knowledge, but I believe it has a lot of wood crammed inside it.
Bummer, about the HD problems, reminds me I need to do some backing up, computer D&C before a similar fate befalls me as I've been pre-occupied with other stuff for awhile now.
Yeah, I believe Thoreau 'hit the nail on the head' when he quipped that "most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them".
Anyway, looking forward to the measurements and hopefully a bunch of folks will be motivated enough to build it and/or adapt its concept to a wide variety of drivers/apps as has happened with the various 'BVR' and 'BIB' pipe horns.
GM
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