Tad comp vs ATC dome + tweet opinions.

[mbon]

Hello,

IMHO nothing can compare to a TAD compression driver in trebble/midrange band (maybe GoTo drivers ?)

I use TAD 2001 on round horn down to 600 Hz and an another TAD loudspeaker below (15" TL1601a)

active crossover of course ...amazing imaging, precision.

thanks to berylium diaphragm and Alnico magnets.

thanks also to beautiful french Horn using JM Le Cleach' curve.

just music....

enjoy :
http://mbon.free.fr/Photo/Mon Salon/salonface.JPG

 

[Salas]

Thanks for your opinions on ATC 100 active. I wanted to know your reactions on it bcs I find the 50 far more natural. The ATC 100 active sounds bloated with a recessed mid to me. I think that in a 50 we can actually listen to the ATC nice mid. I would use a ribbon with this mid in a DIY speaker. The TADS are in another league for loud farfield monitoring IMHO.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

I would use a ribbon with this mid in a DIY speaker.

The ATC mid is best heard with domes. Dispertion is too messed up on a ribbon to get decent off axis response at the XO point. This is one of the attractions of the ATC because of its great off axis response.

When I ordered some bass drivers from ATC I spoke with Billy and he wouldn't recommend any sort of ribbon to be paired with the mid if your wanting the best results.

Our conversation was echoed in his design philosophy white paper which is available for download from the ATC website.

The TADS are in another league for loud farfield monitoring IMHO.

Almost certainly, just looking at the sensitivity specs reveals them to be very dynamic.
Not the kind of speaker I'd push into a corner though and expect the best result from them.

 

[Puggie]

The ATC100s do need a lot of room to breath or they sound overbearing! were you A/Bing the 100s and 50s in the same room, maybe the 50s were just more suited to that size room.

 

[Salas]

Dispertion is too messed up on a ribbon to get decent off axis response at the XO point.

Ribbons create cylindrical waves in the nearfield and very tightly controlled dispersion patterns. Can you elaborate on the reservations of combining them with a dome mid? Also what is the crosspoint that we discuss?

 

[DEFjammer]

Ribbons have a whole other sound, if you like things highlighted and etched use a ribbon by all means with the ATC. A dome will not only match dispersion characteristics but rise and settle times.


One woofer company that has been overlooked and works incredibly well (in my direct experience) is the Skaaning 9"-11"

Skaaning 9" with ATC Mid and Esotar tweeter, Klark-Technik crossover and Warner Imaging amplifiers. This was an awesome system and so was the amount I sold them for. Thank the Lord for Wilson Audio and their grand reputation.

I have Anniversary 50's now and they are really really good, but I wanted to throw Skaaning in the ring as a possibility. Certainly the ATC woofer is the "logical" choice but that can seem boring and unadventurous (all due respect)

For a smaller studio monitor using the 7" Skaaning with one?/two? 12" or 15" subs would be very interesting too for a 4 way situation.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

I have Anniversary 50's now and they are really really good, but I wanted to throw Skaaning in the ring as a possibility. Certainly the ATC woofer is the "logical" choice but that can seem boring and unadventurous (all due respect)

Hi Defjam,

I listened to the Anniversaries at ATC in Feb 05'. Superb speakers and absolutely stunning finish on the cabinets.

Also, it is a boring and unadventurous choice of bass driver. However its also a safe bet for excellent sound. The skannings are similar in price to ATC so you better be 100% sure you'll like them as they are both very expensive.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Ribbons create cylindrical waves in the nearfield and very tightly controlled dispersion patterns. Can you elaborate on the reservations of combining them with a dome mid? Also what is the crosspoint that we discuss?

To cut a long story short, I'll now quote from Billys' loudspeaker design criteria paper:

The relationship between direct and reverberant sound is very important in high performance loudspeakers. It is clear that not only must the on-axis magnitude response be accurate and linear but also that the behavior off-axis must be both broad and even with frequency exhibiting no abrupt dips in amplitude.

In a room when listening to a stereo pair of loudspeakers you first hear the direct sound and then the reverberant field. It is generally agreed and probably true that the reverberant field masks periodic signals, however, it is also apparent that the ear has a precedence effect which means that for impulsive sounds the ear can hear phase dependent effects. Therefore, we believe that any critical judgment of reproduced sound is made principally on the first arrival or direct sound which gives most of the phase related cues and also the low level detail which is quickly lost in the reverberant field.

However, the way we perceive magnitude band balance and the full energy of percussive or impulsive sounds, is dependent upon the power response of the loudspeaker or how evenly it excites the reverberant field with frequency.
Clearly it is impossible to exclude from such a relationship the effect of room acoustics, however, for the purpose of discussing loudspeaker performance we will assume that the listening room has been properly treated and has no serious intrusive problems.
It should also be stated here that the use of D.S.P. to equalize loudspeaker room interface problems is not an acceptable solution to that problem in critical listening environments if it involves modifying the direct sound from the loudspeaker. A dramatic effect of poor midrange dispersion, common in many two way loudspeaker systems, is demonstrated by recording engineers making incorrect magnitude band judgments and applying equalization, usually to the upper midrange, in an attempt to compensate for the apparent lack of energy in that region. Many examples of pop recordings are available which demonstrate this characteristic. That is, a hard strident upper midrange which masks high frequencies, and makes vocals sound recessed while accentuating the bass.

What does this have to do with ribbons? They don't work as well with the ATC mid as domes do.

The rest of the paper is available here:

http://www.atc.gb.net/download/LOUDSPEAKERDESIGNCRITERIA.doc

 

[RyanC]

Cool guy thanks- sorry for disapearing I've been busy busy . . .

Ribbons are a no go for me anyway- I've been down that road- and even if one sounded good to me, the "controlled" dispersion is way too controlled for a few people listening telling me it is constantly too dark (beacuse they are standing not sitting etc)-

It sounds like the general consenses is that the large format comps are too big/loud for a small room. Ive heard otherwise in some places, but I would rather not have to design the room entirely around the speaks (lots of other stuff in there. . .) and I think they tads will have to wait until I get a bigger space.

One question, I have- has anybody tried to rebuild the Be domes from yamaha ns1000's I guess my feeling is that when shinobiwan says he immediatly fell in love with the ATC sound, the ns1000 has always been more to that effect for me, at least the mids through the highs- and it seems if they had a better XO and were active/not such a hard load to carry they might be a contender.

Hey shin: how high do you take the supers? Also do you have caps on them below the pass band or anything? They are a fairly $$ driver to have no protection on in a PC active setup no?

The other thing that might appeal to me would be along the lines of the PHL midrange units- I guess where I am headed is that I feel often times the hi end pro stuff has a certain punch and increase in dynamics that I miss from the hifi stuff- but the hifi stuff is usually less problematic in one way or another. . .

I know I could just go 3 way- but I need to have high excersion style bass for Hip Hop and Rnb stuff and I don't want to have to have it all the time (this way i can use my current TC2+ subs or not). Also I feel the big Xmax drivers are such a trend these days it's good to hear everything thrrough them just to make sure.

Thanks guys-

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Hey shin: how high do you take the supers? Also do you have caps on them below the pass band or anything? They are a fairly $$ driver to have no protection on in a PC active setup no?

Hi Ryan,

I talked about the XO points for the ATC on page 2.

If you do go down the ATC route I've got a ton of information, measurements, personal opinions and experience that I can share with you. I've even got some Waves LineEQ profiles that I can share with you to even out the response and give you a good starting point as well as LEAP 5 Crossover Shop project files.

The ATC is amazing and the excitement hasn't worn off even though I've had the speakers built for around 2-3 months now. They're expensive but personally I'd still have bought them at twice the price because nothing else that I've heard comes quite as close to perfection.

 

[pinkmouse]

...I'd still have bought them at twice the price because nothing else that I've heard comes quite as close to perfection.

BTW, I just found out he other day I've been lying to you all, I have heard TAD midrange drivers, they were used in a variant of the Turbosound TMS3s, the standard Brit PA speaker of the late 80's. I was reminiscing with some mates in the business in the pub the other day, and I commented that one particular PA company that one of the guys worked for had TMS3s that were a bit shouty and upfront compared to other company's systems, and low and behold...

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Hi Al, hope you had a good Christmas and are enjoying the new year.

I just realised that I still don't know what speakers you use. Care to enlighten me, I'll probably regret it though since I bet they're some mega rare vintage pro audio super drivers

 

[pinkmouse]

Well, it's currently stripped down for rebuilding as one of the cabs got damaged, but nothing that exotic really, just good basic drivers. All Audax, HD3P gold dome on the top, still the best tweeter I've ever heard, (unfortunately it doesn't go low enough to mate with the ATC domes ), with aerogel mids, HM100ZO in an aperiodic enclosure, and bass, PR240Z0 in a reflex box. I'm looking at rebuilding with the bottom end as a TL, and going all active, as and when funds allow.

As for vintage drivers, my biggest regret was having to sell my custom 15" Monitor Gold system, four drivers set up as pairs one with and one without without the compression driver, just used to augment bass response. That system rocked.

 

[ShinOBIWAN]

Well, it's currently stripped down for rebuilding as one of the cabs got damaged, but nothing that exotic really, just good basic drivers. All Audax, HD3P gold dome on the top, still the best tweeter I've ever heard, (unfortunately it doesn't go low enough to mate with the ATC domes ), with aerogel mids, HM100ZO in an aperiodic enclosure, and bass, PR240Z0 in a reflex box. I'm looking at rebuilding with the bottom end as a TL, and going all active, as and when funds allow.

As for vintage drivers, my biggest regret was having to sell my custom 15" Monitor Gold system, four drivers set up as pairs one with and one without without the compression driver, just used to augment bass response. That system rocked.

Lovely selection of drivers Al, never heard any of them though

I've heard many positive comments about the HM100ZO though, its supposed to be as good or maybe even better than the ATC mid.
The HD3P is intriguing though, just where do you have to cross it? About 4.5-5Khz?

I think the DIY scene took a big one on the chin when Audax backed out. Sadly I was unaware of just how good Audax drivers were when I started out with DIY and then when I was it was too late There's the PHL stuff which is similar but I'm not sure they're the equals of the Audax classics.

 

[thalis]

Dear Ryan,
PHL mids are exceptional. Both the 6,5 inch bass-mid drivers (like 1220) and the pure mids (like 1510) have qualities which you can¡¦t find in a classic ca90dB 'hi-fi' driver. Exceptional dynamics and 'presence', great power capabilities, lack of compression, great capabilities to effortless reveal details. In many ways they are the successors of the good old Audax drivers (with PR170M0 and Z0 the latest), which is not strange since the founder of PHL was technical manager in Audax industry for some 15 years.
But they would not fit to your needs, as you have defined them. Dispersion is controlled relative to drivers like the atc mid for instance, and frequency magnitude is not exceptionally linear, as in every professional ¡¥unrestrained beast motor¡¦, so it needs good work in the crossover (some 1,6 KHz. Bump caused by the cone to suspension transition for the 12xx series, some 3.3 ¡V 4.1 and 5 KHz bumps for the 15xx, according to my measurements). If you went with PHL though, then a ribbon would be a perfect choice as well

ShinOWIWAN, there were two batches, the lattest would be crossed at 4,5, the former at 6 KHz.

Pinkmouse: I still have 2 pairs of HD3P, luckily they still have gas, and, best of all, 8 pieces of HM100Z0 which is perhaps the best small diameter (and perhaps overall) mid with which I have ever worked. Amazing little driver 240Z0 though isn¡¦t in the same standards, as I thing.

 

[pinkmouse]

Spot on, the current crossover was about 4.5K. The whole system was very clean and crisp, with great accuracy, (but then with my background is that a suprise? )

The HM100Z0 is a very good driver, not quite, (but very close, especially once you get rid of the back wave from the cone), up there with the ATCs in my opinion, but considering it was about 1/5th the price I'm not complaining. Don't get the earlier ones without the phase plugs though, they had really nasty breakup above 3k.

The PHLs I've heard are very good, but they are copies of the pre-aerogel Audax Professional paper cone range, and for me, aerogel is the best all round cone material. It's a real shame diy-ers won't get to play with them again.

 

[pinkmouse]

Thalis, I'm sure you don't really need those HD3Ps, do you?



The PR170MO was a very good driver, and if you read through some of my back posts, you'll see I have recommended it several times to budding constructors. I loved it's sensitivity, it would go so loud with so little effort, and still sound good, and despite the problems you note, it still managed to work well with a basic crossover - goes against all the rules really!

You're possibly right about the PR240 on the bottom, but it does seem to be stunningly resistant to abuse...

 

[Nemophyle]

The PHLs I've heard are very good, but they are copies of the pre-aerogel Audax Professional paper cone range, and for me, aerogel is the best all round cone material. It's a real shame diy-ers won't get to play with them again.

i so much agree with this, if you are seeking a good midrange only driver, the PR170ZO (i think its this one) with aerogel cone and 99db sensivity is one of the best cone midrange i ever had the chance to hear

 

[thalis]

Off course it was an exceptional driver. I have these as well)
The paper one (M0) had also qualities of its own. But I would suggest you should try some 15xx PHL driver. It needs somewhat different crossover alignments, it has also less sensitivity, and overall it is a great performer with greater power capabilities from the Audax drivers. Sonically, it is very similar to these, I would put it in the middle, having, lets say, the lower mid frequencies virtues of the 170M0 and High frequencies ‘mellow detail’ of the Z0, and differences basically rely to crossover and cabin work.

PS Yes, I'll keep those HD3P))

 

[pinkmouse]

I found some pics of my system in an old thread.