This might not be the right place for this question but oh well: diffraction is the devil in the waveguide/horn debate, right? How does the entry port of the bass/midrange not function as other than a diffraction source in these devices, and why or how can it work when diffraction is clearly an evil no matter where it occurs? BTW I have read through a lot of the threads on the subject so please don't advise me to do some reading. If there is a thread or an article on the subject then fine I have missed it
Don't think of diffraction as an absolute evil; its just another one of those bothersome compromises one is faced with in the course of a design.
Where diffraction occurs does matter. As you say its another source; the closer the diffraction source is to the original source, the less harm it does. At the mid ports of a Synergy the diffraction source is certainly close enough to participate in the point source summation. As such, it can have little effect upon imaging.
But in can measurable effect. I think the original CoSyne thread for example, showed CD/tweeter measurements with/without the mid ports taped over and, if I recall correctly, a frequency response aberration up around 4 Khz. I don't recall if that was on axis or not, however. One would hope that for holes in horn corners, the effect would only be seen at the fringes of the pattern.
You are correct though in that this topic has not been discussed much. The concern may exist initially but for those who actually build a Synergy, it tends to disappear at first listen.
Where diffraction occurs does matter. As you say its another source; the closer the diffraction source is to the original source, the less harm it does. At the mid ports of a Synergy the diffraction source is certainly close enough to participate in the point source summation. As such, it can have little effect upon imaging.
But in can measurable effect. I think the original CoSyne thread for example, showed CD/tweeter measurements with/without the mid ports taped over and, if I recall correctly, a frequency response aberration up around 4 Khz. I don't recall if that was on axis or not, however. One would hope that for holes in horn corners, the effect would only be seen at the fringes of the pattern.
You are correct though in that this topic has not been discussed much. The concern may exist initially but for those who actually build a Synergy, it tends to disappear at first listen.
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I don’t think this is a special case.
When a sound wave finds an acoustically small aperture in it’s path (think hole in a wall) the sound reradiates hemispherically as a new source.
I think the apertures in a Synergy horn behave more like a port that behaves adequately below a certain velocity.
Barry.
When a sound wave finds an acoustically small aperture in it’s path (think hole in a wall) the sound reradiates hemispherically as a new source.
I think the apertures in a Synergy horn behave more like a port that behaves adequately below a certain velocity.
Barry.
Phivates
1) You are correct that the "SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn" thread has little to do with the "devil" in a semantic debate
.2) The phase plugs in most every compression driver consist of annular or radial slits, or holes with diameters a fraction of the wavelength of even the highest audible frequencies for which it is used. By definition the driver's throat exit is a point of diffraction regardless of what horn or wave guide is then attached to it. Diffraction is a fact of life, no more evil or good than waves or particles.
The cone driver entry ports are also points of diffraction, with the addition of being passive bandpass filters, and by virtue of being co-located within 1/4 wavelength of the HF source, create a virtual single point source, measurably reducing a plethora of audio problems.
Art
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Just a guess: the volume in the chamber relative to the ports would seem to drive any reflex tuning below the bandpass, right? Wrong? Not speaking of the porting of the enclosure behind the mid/bass. I have no feel for BR enclosures, having started with AR then moved to TL and stuck there ever since. Tuned ports never seem to let go of their favorite note, and I love walking bass not kick drum or train wreck.
Was on the phone with my prosound pal Pete when you responded, ArtW. Thank you for the clarification. They do say the Devil is in the details though...
Was on the phone with my prosound pal Pete when you responded, ArtW. Thank you for the clarification. They do say the Devil is in the details though...
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1)The volume of the throat chamber relative to the port area and depth determine the upper band pass frequency range, that frequency rising with a smaller chamber. Driver excursion limits reduction in size of the throat chamber, vent velocity limits reduction in size of the port area, so the upper frequency limit also has a relatively limited range.
2) A driver with a weak motor in a big box with a high tuning can result in a high Q "one note wonder" as you describe- no reason to limit BR to that type of result, unless a Wurlitzer juke box sound is what you are after...
2) A driver with a weak motor in a big box with a high tuning can result in a high Q "one note wonder" as you describe- no reason to limit BR to that type of result, unless a Wurlitzer juke box sound is what you are after...
In the traditional phase plug symmetry is the norm, whereas in the Unity/Synergy differing path lengths are incorporated deliberately, correct? In the old days the surround was written about as a source of distortion but now these mid entry ports are right there at the cone's edge. Probably needs a proper driver...
Namaste
question on sound through holes, i am wondering if there's a level penalty for the remaining passband? the few lowball experiments i've tried confirms the acoustic lowpass effect but it seems there is a slight difference in level compared to the same driver mounted on a baffle with the full driver exposed. i used an active crossover to filter higher frequencies thinking that their contribution was what was accounting for the difference in average spl but still see a 2-3 db difference between the two.
The difference is the horn loading you get compared to direct radiator.
But comparing full exposes drivers in a horn to drivers pushing their sound through holes. For example in my classic Community TFR horns there are two 12" Emin. Delta drivers sitting in the start of the horn path fully exposed in one 70cm long horn.
So I guess using ports where the sound is pushed through it will lose some db. But do not forget you are doing compression, just like a compression driver so maybe you get more db. Interesting question.
But comparing full exposes drivers in a horn to drivers pushing their sound through holes. For example in my classic Community TFR horns there are two 12" Emin. Delta drivers sitting in the start of the horn path fully exposed in one 70cm long horn.
So I guess using ports where the sound is pushed through it will lose some db. But do not forget you are doing compression, just like a compression driver so maybe you get more db. Interesting question.
Turk,
Your rather general question could be answered far more specifically using Hornresp simulations using various specific conditions.
Hey guys.
Let me tell you something.
I was interested in Unity/Synergy idea from very beginning. I like the single source idea and understand the PROsound needs, but was very skeptical for using it for home HIGH END. To see those speakers trying to produce midrange trough the small holes? Midrande bandpass? Give me a break!
For 5 years I have build couple versions of Synergy horns but never was happy with the sound. I thought the cheap components affected the SQ and probably that was a reason.
Finally I built the version of SynTripp "Art One" version with one 10CL51 woofer, thinking that is for home use one is enough.
Couples days ago I upgraded it to full SynTripp with two woofers. While upgrading I found couple mistakes that I made in the process of making "Art One".
I used to visit every High Fi show in Moscow for 8 years, and most of High End show rooms there, but I never experienced sound of this level. Ever. There is no speakers in $50,000 range that can provide the same level of realistic, dynamic, details, stage dept, sound separation and lifelike sound.
I believe that I didn't heard anything like that.
It sound UN-BE-LIE-VE-BLE!
The DSP settings are: woofers BUT12 80hz and L-R12 на 805hz, HF L-R24 from 957hz. The high output is delayed by 0.4 ms.
I would like to say big thanks to DJK for horn and tweeter suggestion and to Art Wellter for SynTripp conception.
It is really something special.
And after lot's of testing I can highly recommend it.
P.S.Off course I 'll build a LF module under 200hz.
Let me tell you something.
I was interested in Unity/Synergy idea from very beginning. I like the single source idea and understand the PROsound needs, but was very skeptical for using it for home HIGH END. To see those speakers trying to produce midrange trough the small holes? Midrande bandpass? Give me a break!
For 5 years I have build couple versions of Synergy horns but never was happy with the sound. I thought the cheap components affected the SQ and probably that was a reason.
Finally I built the version of SynTripp "Art One" version with one 10CL51 woofer, thinking that is for home use one is enough.
Couples days ago I upgraded it to full SynTripp with two woofers. While upgrading I found couple mistakes that I made in the process of making "Art One".
I used to visit every High Fi show in Moscow for 8 years, and most of High End show rooms there, but I never experienced sound of this level. Ever. There is no speakers in $50,000 range that can provide the same level of realistic, dynamic, details, stage dept, sound separation and lifelike sound.
I believe that I didn't heard anything like that.
It sound UN-BE-LIE-VE-BLE!
The DSP settings are: woofers BUT12 80hz and L-R12 на 805hz, HF L-R24 from 957hz. The high output is delayed by 0.4 ms.
I would like to say big thanks to DJK for horn and tweeter suggestion and to Art Wellter for SynTripp conception.
It is really something special.
And after lot's of testing I can highly recommend it.
P.S.Off course I 'll build a LF module under 200hz.
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I really like the sound of the 18sound NSD1480N compression driver with the Nitride coated Titanium diaphragm in my KV2 speakers. I am thinking of building a pair of SynTrips for small to medium DJ events. Would this CD work well in the SynTripP? 18Sound | NSD1480N
