Patent & Trade mark protection
Just a point of caution....
The best protected trade mark in the world will give you zero protection over your invention or Intellectual property.
All a trade mark will do is give you title to a name / logo / image....
Trade mark protection will not protect the concept, technology, or variations there of.
You can write your own patent application for $100 (average European fee for patent submission on line) and then take it to a good patent lawyer and get an hour free consultation ( most do offer this) and an estimate for the professional patent lawyer to modify and strengthen your application.
My advice is to focus on protecting your IP....Without that you will simply hand the fruits of your labour to the commercial designers who stalk sites like this 24 / 7....
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Just a point of caution....
The best protected trade mark in the world will give you zero protection over your invention or Intellectual property.
All a trade mark will do is give you title to a name / logo / image....
Trade mark protection will not protect the concept, technology, or variations there of.
You can write your own patent application for $100 (average European fee for patent submission on line) and then take it to a good patent lawyer and get an hour free consultation ( most do offer this) and an estimate for the professional patent lawyer to modify and strengthen your application.
My advice is to focus on protecting your IP....Without that you will simply hand the fruits of your labour to the commercial designers who stalk sites like this 24 / 7....
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
1) I thought about cone termination that's why I try first with surround and then without to hear the difference. rocking modes or not the sound is much better and defined without, and yes also on high volumes. If the cone is light and stiff with good damping over the whole surface (thin rubber layer) the rocking modes or not that much. I think also because of the very stif outerdiameter of the cone with the alu ring (thin but high)
=> there are artikels to depend on and there are real world testing results... you must consider both to judge.
2) The driver works vertical no problem. I love to discuss some aspects thats the whole reason that i place this threat but the "clueless enthusiasts like you say" do believe me. Lying is not the purpose... and has also no contribution for me and others.
3) Why ferro don't work? Works like a charm. High BL value, high viscosity ferro applied only on the inside of the former (perfectly smooth) the outside is not good because of the ripples from the coil. You have also to be sure there is no pressure change in the magnetic structure => the ferro will stay in the gap. I have also a video were you can see how the speaker is driven to it's limits.
4) the issues of interaction of magnetic and suspension
linearity have been well covered previously => Do you have andy prove or example? Yes maybe there is but at the expense of other problems.
you can see the suspension compensation in the picture.
green line => suspension force. yellow line => voicecoil force.
X-I curve is full lineair till +/-4mm.
I want to see if someone can make this with a spider? No, impossible.
Regards,
Attachments
Oke there is alot concern about cone termination. And I understand the concern.
In my opinion if you consider to eliminate the surround it is important in order to get as close as possible to move pistonic. In theory, if you can move pistonic there is no need for termination. In practice it is not possible i know, but a very light strong cone even on the outside (alu ring) and with damping material on it will do the job.
I did test the cone without any crossover and there is no audible ringing.
Why is it that foam surrounds sounds better than rubber? Rubber tends to be better damping? Foam is lighter...
In the beginning the intention is not to make a surroundless speaker but with this design it is possible so i tried it. The invention is not surroundless, it is the changable suspension and full lineair but it sounds better without surround thats all i can say.
Take Care,
In my opinion if you consider to eliminate the surround it is important in order to get as close as possible to move pistonic. In theory, if you can move pistonic there is no need for termination. In practice it is not possible i know, but a very light strong cone even on the outside (alu ring) and with damping material on it will do the job.
I did test the cone without any crossover and there is no audible ringing.
Why is it that foam surrounds sounds better than rubber? Rubber tends to be better damping? Foam is lighter...
In the beginning the intention is not to make a surroundless speaker but with this design it is possible so i tried it. The invention is not surroundless, it is the changable suspension and full lineair but it sounds better without surround thats all i can say.
Take Care,
Hi,
Good thinking, also thought about this but there are some problems i guess:
- More damping with low Q driver resulting in overdamping. So low end output is very restricted.
- More amp power is needed.
- the slightest difference of signal between the two coils wil give some irregularity and distorted sound.
- also there is no zero (rest)point if there is no signal. don't see a solution te put the cone perfect in the middle. Or, after you play music for a while the cone position can shift it's rest position.
But thanks for the suggestion!
Rgrds,
Yes you will, but for the moment I only have these data when it is placed in a closed cabinet and with surround and papercone setup. But the paper cone was rubbish too thin. I just decided to make two whole new drivers like the last one. no surround and spider and kevlar dome but this will might take a while. The driver I talk about here (the one i tested last weekend) is dead so I can't do the measurement of it. The reason it is broken is my own fault. On the back there are 4 bolts to hold the bottomplate to the sidewall. I wan't to change the basket for testing but this is also bolt to these four bolts. When loosing them the polepiece just came out of center against the outer ring of the airgap. Almost impossible to disassemble without any damage.
distortion and FR but in a full setup (2way with seas tweeter) so this don't tell much. Also with the thin paper dome.
The dark brown line is the plot of my Keff-Q75 for reference. Oke this is not a top notch speaker but also not a bad one.
Rgrds,
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Maybe interesting if someone likes radial speakers.
The plot is from the same dome speaker but placed horizontal under 5 degree and offcourse with the same tweeter just above the driver.
The sound is less direct but more present in the whole room and a much bigger soundfield. Also pleasant to listen to.
The plot is from the same dome speaker but placed horizontal under 5 degree and offcourse with the same tweeter just above the driver.
The sound is less direct but more present in the whole room and a much bigger soundfield. Also pleasant to listen to.
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>Why is it that foam surrounds sounds better than rubber?
I dunno. Added mass to damping ratio? You could always place a foam surround on the cone and shave off everything but the inner quarter of the roll. It wouldn't be everything a normal setup would be but add a little lossy strength to the edge.
I dunno. Added mass to damping ratio? You could always place a foam surround on the cone and shave off everything but the inner quarter of the roll. It wouldn't be everything a normal setup would be but add a little lossy strength to the edge.
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Yes oké like you say it and they made it, it must be bad and I think cheap. (unbelievable that companies like panasonic make such thoughtless rubbish junk) The outergap clearance must be 1mm or something...
Does someone know Fertin speakers?
Products
Also surroundless and these are good but expensive speakers 2000Euro each I red somewhere. France company.
Reference points
Hi Jeff,
Just a thought about references.
When testing your designs you do need good references, it really helps you and it will help DIY members and other potential partners get a feel for the potential of your designs.
Good Scan Speak or Seas drivers ain sealed enclosures are very popular references as almost everyone is familiar with how they sound and you can build low cost MDF test cabinets easily in a weekend.
It goes without saying that any new design must be a significant advance over any of the mainstream or high end drivers available from established manufacturers. Unless it is way ahead in the " "bang for your buck" stakes it will not sell.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Jeff,
Just a thought about references.
When testing your designs you do need good references, it really helps you and it will help DIY members and other potential partners get a feel for the potential of your designs.
Good Scan Speak or Seas drivers ain sealed enclosures are very popular references as almost everyone is familiar with how they sound and you can build low cost MDF test cabinets easily in a weekend.
It goes without saying that any new design must be a significant advance over any of the mainstream or high end drivers available from established manufacturers. Unless it is way ahead in the " "bang for your buck" stakes it will not sell.
Cheers
Derek.
If it turns out to be not as good as Seas or Scanspeak drivers all is not lost:
Just spend a weekend on a write up full of techno babble (check the snake oil thread for inspiration) on why it is surrounds and spiders which hold driver design back, add an extra zero or two to the price tag and sell them to the 'audiophile' community. ;-)
Just spend a weekend on a write up full of techno babble (check the snake oil thread for inspiration) on why it is surrounds and spiders which hold driver design back, add an extra zero or two to the price tag and sell them to the 'audiophile' community. ;-)
I know you are right about this ;-))
But I did compare them with the Gamut L5 speaker (price tag 12000euro or something with scanspeak drivers) and voila that problem is solved. I feel with the next version it is possible to blow them away... but time will tell.
'audiophile' community:
What is being talked (also in DIYAudio, various threads) about is the 50.000$ Magicos with ATD Hypergraph and Nano-Tec drivers (I would be fine with some OEM's Hertzs for the looks), the SB Satori MW16P. the Jantzen JA-8008 (more by Troels).
What is being talked (also in DIYAudio, various threads) about is the 50.000$ Magicos with ATD Hypergraph and Nano-Tec drivers (I would be fine with some OEM's Hertzs for the looks), the SB Satori MW16P. the Jantzen JA-8008 (more by Troels).
This thread already has a complete set of very nice content.
(And a little as Derek said already above,)
Go with the flow, and take very good care (of your know-how), meaning don't sell it for cheap. With many drivers it was very much like in the same way that they started (forums and R&D or just tech-talk) like Manguers, RAAL ribbons, others like the 3" AIR A320 - AIR Sesame . Sometimes we ask how the industry comes up with the same product, by the way you can find a similar by Visaton - VISATON B80 Full Range, I'm not saying is the case, in the same time frame, that we don't know nothing about. That kind of coincidence is very much possible but always nice to be careful. Best.
(And a little as Derek said already above,)
Go with the flow, and take very good care (of your know-how), meaning don't sell it for cheap. With many drivers it was very much like in the same way that they started (forums and R&D or just tech-talk) like Manguers, RAAL ribbons, others like the 3" AIR A320 - AIR Sesame . Sometimes we ask how the industry comes up with the same product, by the way you can find a similar by Visaton - VISATON B80 Full Range, I'm not saying is the case, in the same time frame, that we don't know nothing about. That kind of coincidence is very much possible but always nice to be careful. Best.
To my eyes, the suspension of Fertin is similar to the legendary Goodmans Axiom 80.
I had seen the latter once, only one of it on the shelf in a store. Not having a chance to hear it, not to mention I knew little about speakers at that time. What a shame.
On photos I can find now, this 'edgeless' Axiom 80 seems not trying to get air tight like the later Japanese efforts. There's a visible gap between the edge of cone and the frame. For its low excursion application, seems it's doing OK.
Interestingly, there're several recommended cabinet designs from Goodmans, including BLH. I wonder how the leak affects the overall tuning.
This reminds me one of my experiment on a guitar driver. I remember the gap on the cone edge does affect the lower end of its operating range. The leak (cancellation) is quite obvious.
I had seen the latter once, only one of it on the shelf in a store. Not having a chance to hear it, not to mention I knew little about speakers at that time. What a shame.
On photos I can find now, this 'edgeless' Axiom 80 seems not trying to get air tight like the later Japanese efforts. There's a visible gap between the edge of cone and the frame. For its low excursion application, seems it's doing OK.
Interestingly, there're several recommended cabinet designs from Goodmans, including BLH. I wonder how the leak affects the overall tuning.
This reminds me one of my experiment on a guitar driver. I remember the gap on the cone edge does affect the lower end of its operating range. The leak (cancellation) is quite obvious.
Your scale is between 180dB and 200dB. That's way WAY to much to see anything meaningful. When I design crossover I work on a scale between 60dB and 100dB. For reference, Stereophile measurement are usually on a 50db, Zaph uses 90dB...
You can make anything look flat with a 200dB scale.
Nice project!
Chuck
I understand the concern, the measurement is a quick sweep on location with a laptop. So the measurement is not good. If the next driver is ready (I am started this week with the almost final version) good cabinet and active crossover on a higher level. Also going to make a iec baffle for FR response. But I think this will be ready end of august.
Rgrds,
Rgrds,
Little update after some delay.
The two drivers are ready (apart from some details)
The first test you can see on the video (I use these test to see if the center alignment is oké) so you can see the drivers performs well even vertically).
http://youtu.be/rxwplp_C70g
ps. it is recorded with a (picture) camera so the sound is horrible
Now it is time to make the cases so I think within two weeks it must be ready.
cheers,
The two drivers are ready (apart from some details)
The first test you can see on the video (I use these test to see if the center alignment is oké) so you can see the drivers performs well even vertically).
http://youtu.be/rxwplp_C70g
ps. it is recorded with a (picture) camera so the sound is horrible
Now it is time to make the cases so I think within two weeks it must be ready.
cheers,
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