No, not really.
If the use of subs "only makes a mess in your sound scene" then I doubt you have ever heard a good reproduction system. It might not be easy to do (by the way it is easy to do if you use a sub in the near field) or expensive or it might require additional passive absorption. But without a doubt our hearing goes down below 10Hz and there is lots of content down to 30Hz in typical music recording. It's up to you if you want or can (money, neighbors, wife, etc.) implement a reproduction system that is capable of reproducing common recordings.
Is all of this necessary to enjoy music, no. But if you're going down that road, an iPod with cheap headphones can be enough.
Secondly, using a capable woofer to "compensate poor front" has always been a valid way to extend the passband and decrease distortion.
Of course they're needed. That they are hard to set up is a totally different question. If you think subs "makes a mess in your sound scene" only shows you've never heard a properly integrated system. Does a 3-way speaker sound good with an off the shelf crossover? No it doesn't! Same thing with subs, it takes a lot of effort to make them blend with the rest of the system and room. Doesn't make them less important though...
Gad, this thread has so much hoooie in it, mixed with good thoughts.
What is a "SUB"? Just a woofer. (Or by THX spec, below 80Hz)
Do you need one? Only if your miss those frequencies.
Should you have one? Not if you live in an apartment.
Do you need more than one? It depends.
How low do you go? Below 30 is special effects. 30 to 50 has a lot of musical content. Jazz is just plain dead without good deep bass. Rock is almost devoid of anything below 60. You won't find anything on an LP below 35 or so. You don't hear 10 Hz, you feel a pressure on your chest. (I HP filter my subs at 25Hz )
Disclaimer: I have subs on three out of 6 systems in my house. Two singles, one with two. All my mains are 6 1/2 inch or smaller and don't go below 65Hz. I need subs. You may not.
What is a "SUB"? Just a woofer. (Or by THX spec, below 80Hz)
Do you need one? Only if your miss those frequencies.
Should you have one? Not if you live in an apartment.
Do you need more than one? It depends.
How low do you go? Below 30 is special effects. 30 to 50 has a lot of musical content. Jazz is just plain dead without good deep bass. Rock is almost devoid of anything below 60. You won't find anything on an LP below 35 or so. You don't hear 10 Hz, you feel a pressure on your chest. (I HP filter my subs at 25Hz )
Disclaimer: I have subs on three out of 6 systems in my house. Two singles, one with two. All my mains are 6 1/2 inch or smaller and don't go below 65Hz. I need subs. You may not.
needed ?
I dont know about that
would rather say...can be a benefit
I know why people like them, and can't live without
and I also have an idea about why many give up on them
I suspect one cause of possible problems could come from a bad habbit most record producers have had, pumping up the bass, and thinking that's what most of us want, more bass
its true, we want more bass
they just ain't doing it right so I guess a fully active system with subs does give you some options of adjusting it to your needs, if done right, and within limits ofcourse
in the future I expect we may have a new digital feature that allows us to be our own 'sound producers'
meaning, you can change the sound of any record, and make it sound just like you want it to
Well, the frequencies we can hear are roughly 20-20000 Hz and if you are to reproduce them you need a subwoofer as long as you don't have VERY capable mains. For movies (and church organs) you need another octave for the physical sensation.
It's expensive and tricky to reach down low with quality but thats another thing and most people probably don't think it's worth it.
It's expensive and tricky to reach down low with quality but thats another thing and most people probably don't think it's worth it.
For audio this is where tapped horns come in, 20Hz to 100Hz for domestic sized ones.
No 'normal' main speaker can do what they do. In a horn system they are easy enough to integrate.
No 'normal' main speaker can do what they do. In a horn system they are easy enough to integrate.
I have to disagree with this statement. Looking at the spectrograms of my "rock" I see significant energy well below that. This is what I'm listening to now, Epica's "Unleashed".
Attachments
Been using two 12" tapped horns (15-60hz) for the last couple of years, couldn't make it without them!
I had a Sunfire Mark IV sub that I experimented with, for a few years. I recently sold it. It did little for my music, and yes I do sometimes listen to the wall shaking stuff. Already mentioned are two main reasons for having (or not) a sub: Does your music have much in the lowest octave? Most of mine does not. Do your speakers reach reasonably low? I am still in my "Bose 901 series I/II" period and my answer is definitely "yes..." but I push the bottom end up to 30 dB, compared with about 18 dB with the default Bose EQ. Perhaps as a rule of thumb, if you can lift one of your mains, then yes, you may need a sub
I hate to break it to you, but the Sunfire True Subwoofers are not musical-sounding subwoofers. They are acceptable for home theater, and that's all.
Subwoofers for hi-fi seem to be disappearing (since they usually aren't considered 'beefy' enough for home theater) but they can still be found. One company that makes them is REL, and another is Velodyne, but only their servo-controlled subs. The other models in their range are more suited for home theater. There are still others out there, but you don't hear about many 'new' ones, which is unfortunate because I think they are still needed.
Today's subwoofers for home theater are designed to be loud and small, and that's it.
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There is no "musical sounding subwoofer" as much as there's no "home theater subwoofer". There are subwoofers that are either capable or not.
Problem is the manufacturer that doesn't hand out the proper specs as much as the consumer that has no idea what subwoofer he might need nor how to integrate them into his particular room.
Problem is the manufacturer that doesn't hand out the proper specs as much as the consumer that has no idea what subwoofer he might need nor how to integrate them into his particular room.
Markus - agreed
The fact that is being missed in this discussion is that MOST subs are very poor quality and MOST setup are not done properly. That in no way means that ALL subs are poor and all setups are bad.
Does one "need" a sub? no more than one needs anything more that ear buds to listen to music. But a truely great system has to have multiple sub setup prioperly. Once you have experinced that you will realize how necessary they are.
The fact that is being missed in this discussion is that MOST subs are very poor quality and MOST setup are not done properly. That in no way means that ALL subs are poor and all setups are bad.
Does one "need" a sub? no more than one needs anything more that ear buds to listen to music. But a truely great system has to have multiple sub setup prioperly. Once you have experinced that you will realize how necessary they are.
Cool. Vad bra!
It's surprising how little is said about them really - apart from the big tapped horn thread a while back.
It's surprising how little is said about them really - apart from the big tapped horn thread a while back.
Been using two 12" tapped horns (15-60hz) for the last couple of years, couldn't make it without them!
I am sure this debate had been played out long long ago....Picture this if you will......An informal round table discussion circa 1952 or so.."Why on earth would I want a loudspeaker to reproduce tones below 80 cycles per second?" ....and above twelve thousand?"
One individual absolutely convinced of little to no "value" of loudspeaker performance above or below noted values........another "absolutely convinced" of the "If it's within the range of human hearing"....we should strive for it!
Myself solidly within the latter camp.
______________________________________________________Rick........
One individual absolutely convinced of little to no "value" of loudspeaker performance above or below noted values........another "absolutely convinced" of the "If it's within the range of human hearing"....we should strive for it!
Myself solidly within the latter camp.
______________________________________________________Rick........
Completely agree, would also add "firm" to signify importance of phasing. I must admit, "airy" is not something I would normally associate with bass, but it's all about definition I guess.
Anyway, it is amusing to see how little it takes for a discussion to completely derail here sometimes. Most of us probably agree completely on what we want, it is all the different definitions and phrasings that seem to trip us.
Exceptions to every rule.
Know what you are missing? Well, get out of the house and go listen to real music. Then you will know.
Testing has shown, ear-buds that seal will do significant damage to your hearing at levels that you may think are safe. The exact cause is still under debate. Of course, wear them enough and you may be able to move over to the singer driver forum.
Pay attenuation to what Earl said. I am quite fond of my Peerless XLS's, where I have never head anything in a store that sounded OK to me. That Sunfire was horrid. Velo, B&W, Mirage, & Paradigm were all sad. I am sure some are sold somewhere that are, I just never found them.
I must confess to something, It was listening to a setup with Martin Logan Request and a Velodyne DD18 that really sold me in on the idea of adding a sub woofer to my system. Up to that point nothing really triggered any interest, too much phasing issues. With the DD18 it was just pushing a few buttons and positioning the measurement microphone.
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Probably newer than I have heard. My "good" subs sit right behind my mains, so I don't have too much in the way of integration issues. When I first heard Sequels, they had no sub that worked with well them. But ooooo, love that midrange.
Around here, they think Bose is high end. Just about all the real stores are gone. Thanks to the economy, even the video stores that at least tried to have some high end are just about gone. It makes it hard to here what is current.
I tried to use my DCX to integrate my subs. Total waste of time as anything it fixed, it made worse just by it's sound. (un-modded). Mains sitting on the subs is really the best place to start. (Hard with the ML's) as you don't have to delay the mains. The only digital servo Velo's I heard seemed disjointed and "late". Take a good Copland style smack on the Tympani, and the weight of the bass seemed to be behind the impact. Just checked out the DD-18 on the web. It is a lot more advanced than the last one I heard. I wish them well and to have made progress.
Around here, they think Bose is high end. Just about all the real stores are gone. Thanks to the economy, even the video stores that at least tried to have some high end are just about gone. It makes it hard to here what is current.
I tried to use my DCX to integrate my subs. Total waste of time as anything it fixed, it made worse just by it's sound. (un-modded). Mains sitting on the subs is really the best place to start. (Hard with the ML's) as you don't have to delay the mains. The only digital servo Velo's I heard seemed disjointed and "late". Take a good Copland style smack on the Tympani, and the weight of the bass seemed to be behind the impact. Just checked out the DD-18 on the web. It is a lot more advanced than the last one I heard. I wish them well and to have made progress.
Just that having nothing below 60Hz would be the exception and not the rule. Check for yourself and get Sonic Visualiser - it's free.
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