Old school speakers were often large anyway...for efficiency, and also for bass. The contemporary concept of the 'subwoofer' is largely a marketing ploy to encourage ladies to permit their husbands to buy home theatre packages, and extends to encouraging men to open their wallets to achieve personal linear compensation
i agree , that why i think i have the best of both worlds , mains big enough for the room and subs at moderate levels to even LF
I lost a considerable amount of quality bass when I set up my speakers according to the magic audiophile triangle I pulled the speakers forward so the front baffle is 1 meter from back wall, and 1 meter from side walls. I am sitting in the sweet spot and don't really care about sound quality outside of sweet spot. Critical listening is done on the couch. When the speakers were placed in the new location, I noticed the anemic bass immediately. Especially from these old rockin' refurbished CV D7's. I can build better speakers, but the price was too ridiculous to not buy the old nostalgic rockers... I enjoy them, even with the not so spectacular mids/highs.
I added two subs. To keep this short, I will just say that even though I am only using 2 subs, no eq or measuring equipment, and one of the subs is a bit undersized, there is a remarkable improvement in bass depth and quality. Not to mention the bass is more even throughout the room. Only hot spots in some deep corners. I can do much better with larger, higher quality subs and putting more time into measuring/dsp'ing... I like the idea of adding more amplification and woofers instead of heavy eq'ing or pushing my small receiver harder with just the pair of speakers I have now. Especially considering my receiver is only putting out 70 watts per channel. When I get some minidsp's, I can bi amp to 4 channels at 70 watts instead of 2. I can then add big, efficient mid bass. Maybe some 18's in sealed boxes...
I say, yes... For music, subs can help, and may even be necessary in some cases. One thing I have learned over the years, and on this website is that you have to move stuff around, and experiment until it sounds good to you...
I have room for a tall TL or tuba style sub.... hmmmm.. .Maybe...
I pulled the speakers forward so the front baffle is 1 meter from back wall, and 1 meter from side walls. I am sitting in the sweet spot and don't really care about sound quality outside of sweet spot. Critical listening is done on the couch. When the speakers were placed in the new location, I noticed the anemic bass immediately. Especially from these old rockin' refurbished CV D7's. I can build better speakers, but the price was too ridiculous to not buy the old nostalgic rockers... I enjoy them, even with the not so spectacular mids/highs. I added two subs. To keep this short, I will just say that even though I am only using 2 subs, no eq or measuring equipment, and one of the subs is a bit undersized, there is a remarkable improvement in bass depth and quality. Not to mention the bass is more even throughout the room. Only hot spots in some deep corners. I can do much better with larger, higher quality subs and putting more time into measuring/dsp'ing... I like the idea of adding more amplification and woofers instead of heavy eq'ing or pushing my small receiver harder with just the pair of speakers I have now. Especially considering my receiver is only putting out 70 watts per channel. When I get some minidsp's, I can bi amp to 4 channels at 70 watts instead of 2. I can then add big, efficient mid bass. Maybe some 18's in sealed boxes...
I say, yes... For music, subs can help, and may even be necessary in some cases. One thing I have learned over the years, and on this website is that you have to move stuff around, and experiment until it sounds good to you...
I have room for a tall TL or tuba style sub.... hmmmm.. .Maybe...
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Open a sound file and select Pane > Add Spectrogram > <filename> All Channels Mixed
Set FFT parameters like this:
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well, a sub does indeed open the door to other options, like using a higher SPL midbass horn rolling off around 100hz
just now visited a big and well known US supplier of drivers
had a look at their woofers
strangely all hifi woofers looked like ....
and all the sub drivers looked ...
just now visited a big and well known US supplier of drivers
had a look at their woofers
strangely all hifi woofers looked like ....
and all the sub drivers looked ...
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I think my point was missed a little, really what I mean is, if you're trying to reproduce what they're doing (using how it sounds live as a reference) you will never get the intended feeling of the heartbeat in "Speak to Me" or the chest pound of "Time" with 6.5" drivers, especially if those drivers are also being asked to produce midbass and midrange, while being driven nearly to xlim.
For me, the first step to Hi-Fi is a question of bandwidth. You personally might not enjoy some of the sounds or feelings that some bands produce with synths or computers and decide that you don't want to reproduce them, but this is really a personal choice that we should avoid discussing as if it were globally undesirable (nobody needs that).
When the question is asked such as the OP did, we shouldn't immediately respond with yes or no. It's a personal question. The question of "Is a subwoofer necessary" or "How low should I go?" should always, always be followed up immediately with "What kind of music do you listen to and do you listen to it at realistic levels?"
do you know many hours I listen to music, every day just half an hour of what you suggest, and my listening joy is gone for the rest of the day
but thats got nothing to do with ' subwoofer or not'
You probably don't listen to what he suggests. Care to share measurements of the "joyless" configuration you're talking about?
maybe it was the opposite
I would be happy with that
configuration ?
I never mentioned anything about any 'configuration'
only referring to what happens to your hearing when bombarded with high SPL
or maybe its just my ears that get hurt by high SPL
but my personal ears or 'configuration' was not meant to be the focus of my post
like said, SPL is not the sole point of a subwoofer, even if most go along that route
occationally we have members asking for a musical subwoofer, in high hopes that....but whatever
just half an hour of what you suggest, and my listening joy is gone for the rest of the day
but thats got nothing to do with ' subwoofer or not'
I'm not suggesting you have to do anything special, just put on a track like Go(d)t and put the volume up to a pleasant level (somewhere in the 80db range would be fine), when that gigantic low bass thump starts happening, midbass drivers that are allowed to receive bass that they can't reproduce are still going to be jumping out of their coil gaps.
Try eeet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Tcqw-El5VxY#t=250s
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I don't know what kind of music does that
but if I actually had that record, I doubt it would matter enough for me to build a special speaker just for that
cheaper and easier to give that record away ... maybe safer too, from what you say
like said, I do have classical music that could do similar to what you say, but I put it on so rarely, I don't think its important enough
but if I really played big orchestral classical symphonic music all day long, I might think twice about
maybe its just a matter of priorities...and available cash
I don't buy my own air jet just because I go on holliday once a year
but I might consider it if I had the money
but if I actually had that record, I doubt it would matter enough for me to build a special speaker just for that
cheaper and easier to give that record away ... maybe safer too, from what you say
like said, I do have classical music that could do similar to what you say, but I put it on so rarely, I don't think its important enough
but if I really played big orchestral classical symphonic music all day long, I might think twice about
maybe its just a matter of priorities...and available cash
I don't buy my own air jet just because I go on holliday once a year
but I might consider it if I had the money
maybe it was the opposite
I would be happy with that
configuration ?
I never mentioned anything about any 'configuration'
only referring to what happens to your hearing when bombarded with high SPL
"Bombarded"? I don't think this was the point. Our hearing becomes increasingly insensitive towards lower frequencies. Here's the detection threshold for low frequencies:
(From Watanabe/Moeller, "Low Frequency Hearing Thresholds in Pressure Field and in Free Field")
Physics prevents smallish woofers from delivering distortion free sound pressure levels.
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I don't know what kind of music does that
but if I actually had that record, I doubt it would matter enough for me to build a special speaker just for that
cheaper and easier to give that record away ... maybe safer too, from what you say
Haha, maybe. I've got probably a couple dozen albums in my collection that you'd be missing half of without a good solid arrangement of powerful subs. Everything from jazz to cutting-edge electronica. Live stuff too. If I was at a concert and they let off pyrotechnics, I'd feel it in my chest...and I like chasing that feeling when playing back recordings. Even some stuff you don't even know is there until you hear it and you're like..."wow, where was that note before?" Even at low volumes, I get a lot of enjoyment out of the emotion and visceral feelings that come along with low bass, especially if it's clean and effortless.
I've never been able to get that from just a pair of speakers that are positioned for imaging.
It might not be for everyone.
I didn't know my speaker were small
or else I have my bass guitar rig
could put my house flat on the ground
I didn't know my speaker were small
or else I have my bass guitar rig
could put my house flat on the ground
I was talking about your speakers? Where and why would I? I don't know them.
I'm gettig frustrated discussing the topic with you. Is there any non-subjective argument you could make against the necessity of subwoofers in music reproduction?
3way DIY, 19mm Vifa tweeter, 5" mid Focal mid, 12" Mivoc woofer ...distorts like hell
nah, they are ok no, they are not built to play loud, but neither are my ears, or brain
so what, dont blame my speakers
but if you blame my ears, I won't deny it, no sir
but you ask me to come up with a non-subjective argument against subs, and preferably one measured
how about the money issue
that I can measure and proveyeah, sure, I would like to have a sub, or two, or how many it takes...but not because I need it, or want to play any louder
I have nothing against subs at all, why should I
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