Say that you don't have any choice; you need to decide if you're going to use 1. short speaker cables with long interconnects, or 2. long speaker cables with short interconnects.
...One or the other, no can do with both short interconnects and speaker cables. ...One has to be long.
Which one (of the two options above is best)? ...Scientific/electrical evidence please.
* From what I've read previously here @ diyAudio forums, number one (#1.) option from above is better than #2.
...One or the other, no can do with both short interconnects and speaker cables. ...One has to be long.
Which one (of the two options above is best)? ...Scientific/electrical evidence please.
* From what I've read previously here @ diyAudio forums, number one (#1.) option from above is better than #2.
I have measured the current drawn by my speakers (see attached files).
As you can see the current has quite a lot of distortion, so if it goes through long (high-impedance) cables the voltage at loudspeaker terminals will be distorted in proportion to the current harmonics multiplied by the impedance ratio between loudspeaker and cable. Also, the cable impedance will change the frequency response. This shows bi-wiring may not be so snake oil after all.
However, when measuring the loudspeaker acoustic output (which has lots of distortion anyway) with and without a 0.5 ohm resistor in series, I did not find any change. But my microphone isn't very good.
So, maybe long balanced interconnects and short speaker cables make sense. Or just use thick low-Z speaker cable.
Another possibility would be to use optical interconnects and put a DAC able to reject jitter like ES9023 in each amp, but volume control is a problem.
Here, since the speakers cables are short (straight line from amp to L/R speakers), I don't have this problem.
You could do a test, using a microphone, with and without 0.5R resistor in series with your speakers, measure THD and frequency response.
As you can see the current has quite a lot of distortion, so if it goes through long (high-impedance) cables the voltage at loudspeaker terminals will be distorted in proportion to the current harmonics multiplied by the impedance ratio between loudspeaker and cable. Also, the cable impedance will change the frequency response. This shows bi-wiring may not be so snake oil after all.
However, when measuring the loudspeaker acoustic output (which has lots of distortion anyway) with and without a 0.5 ohm resistor in series, I did not find any change. But my microphone isn't very good.
So, maybe long balanced interconnects and short speaker cables make sense. Or just use thick low-Z speaker cable.
Another possibility would be to use optical interconnects and put a DAC able to reject jitter like ES9023 in each amp, but volume control is a problem.
Here, since the speakers cables are short (straight line from amp to L/R speakers), I don't have this problem.
You could do a test, using a microphone, with and without 0.5R resistor in series with your speakers, measure THD and frequency response.
Attachments
Bob, if you only get few answers it most likely will be because those here have gone the rounds so many times, on such matters. There have been a few threads on this, such as http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/21202-long-interconnects-speaker-cable.html, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/193100-speaker-cable-myths-facts.html, and http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/147660-long-speaker-cables.html. Check them out to get an idea of how those here think about this sort of thing ...
Cheers,
Cheers,
Yes, so much snake oil here. SOP is shorter speaker, longer interconnect.
I try to keep main front speaker cables under 10 feet. ( 16 ga zip) My preamps have sufficient drive for long interconnects ( stranded RG-79)
Like all engineering, there are many tradeoffs. WAF being one of them. Do what works for you.
PS: Some of us sleep at night.
I try to keep main front speaker cables under 10 feet. ( 16 ga zip) My preamps have sufficient drive for long interconnects ( stranded RG-79)
Like all engineering, there are many tradeoffs. WAF being one of them. Do what works for you.
PS: Some of us sleep at night.
It may depend on how long is 'long'? It certainly depends on the output impedance of your source and power amplifier, and how this relates to the cable impedance (series resistance for speaker cables, shunt capacitance for interconnects).
If you have SET amp then long speaker cables will do little more harm. If you have a 'high-end' source then it probably can't drive much cable capacitance. So for the 'audiophile' the least damage will come from long speaker cables and short interconnects.
If you just have decent well-engineered commercial equipment (or well-designed DIY) then the opposite may be true. Low source impedance can drive some interconnect cable capacitance, and low power amp impedance (i.e. high DF) can benefit from short speaker cables.
Unless the cables are quite long it doesn't make much difference so go for whatever is convenient.
If you have SET amp then long speaker cables will do little more harm. If you have a 'high-end' source then it probably can't drive much cable capacitance. So for the 'audiophile' the least damage will come from long speaker cables and short interconnects.
If you just have decent well-engineered commercial equipment (or well-designed DIY) then the opposite may be true. Low source impedance can drive some interconnect cable capacitance, and low power amp impedance (i.e. high DF) can benefit from short speaker cables.
Unless the cables are quite long it doesn't make much difference so go for whatever is convenient.
Yes Frank, I knew that very well before I started this new thread.
Except that my question is quite specific, and I was looking for scientific answers, not just links. But thanks for mentioning those above.
An electrical engineer, someone specialized in that particular domain is the one I'm after.
And thank you peufeu for your reply just above.
If "long interconnects" includes balanced, then I would go for long interconnects. Long standard interconnects may work well, as long as you don't pick up stray RF. Your amplifier input impedance and low crossover/pre-amp output impedance should preserve the signal well. On the other hand, long speaker connectors add enough series resistance to impact the amplifier's ability to "damp" the speaker motion.
Personally, I have lived with both, and find that the differences are very slight, and I haven't actually noticed a downside to either. My current setup includes long speaker wires to my main system, long interconnects (not balanced) to some of my other systems, and long interconnects AND long speaker cables to my whole-house system. All sound fine.
Personally, I have lived with both, and find that the differences are very slight, and I haven't actually noticed a downside to either. My current setup includes long speaker wires to my main system, long interconnects (not balanced) to some of my other systems, and long interconnects AND long speaker cables to my whole-house system. All sound fine.
Good point!
Eg.;
1. Short speaker wires = 2 meters (long ones = 12 meters) ...12AWG (copper)
2. Short interconnects = 1 meter (long ones = 10 meters) ...6 Ns (copper) RCA unbalanced.
So it all depends really of the equipment you're running.
Option #1 can be better with this type of gear, and option #2 better with that type.
Makes sense; everything has to be perfectly defined first.
I'll be back. Meanwhile I'm here to learn, and thank you!
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As long as the interconnects are unbalanced I'd go for short ICs and long speaker cables.
Unbalanced ICs can pick up rubbish while decent speaker cables have a near negligible resistance, especially if the speakers use passive xovers.
For example the 4mm^2 cable (about 11AWG I think) I use has <4.5Ohm per km. 10m of cable really don't make any difference.
For active speakers and balanced ICs I'd go the other way around.
Mind you if you use really long balanced ICs you might want to insert a line driver every 25m or 50m.
Unbalanced ICs can pick up rubbish while decent speaker cables have a near negligible resistance, especially if the speakers use passive xovers.
For example the 4mm^2 cable (about 11AWG I think) I use has <4.5Ohm per km. 10m of cable really don't make any difference.
For active speakers and balanced ICs I'd go the other way around.
Mind you if you use really long balanced ICs you might want to insert a line driver every 25m or 50m.
"Keep your speaker cables short! Power loss in a cable is equal to the product of its resistance, R, and the square of the current running through it. Therefore, dynamic range suffers accordingly. If running longer interconnect cables is an option, do it. Just remember to avoid high output impedance preamps when considering that approach." - James H. Hayward*
* Retired from Bell Canada Special Services Engineering and Operations Groups, Jim Hayward is a Ryerson Electronics Technology graduate whose professional specialty has been data communications and radio systems. He is also a pianist and longtime audiophile, and taught at Radio College of Canada in Toronto.
* Retired from Bell Canada Special Services Engineering and Operations Groups, Jim Hayward is a Ryerson Electronics Technology graduate whose professional specialty has been data communications and radio systems. He is also a pianist and longtime audiophile, and taught at Radio College of Canada in Toronto.
Bob, I would agree with DF96. If the dynamic range subjectively seems to be worse with a particular cable then it would be some type of interaction between the cable, amplifier and perhaps some of the other components, introducing a type of distortion which registers in our hearing as a loss of dynamics ...
Alright, lets hear from more experts.
<<<>>> http://bryston.com/PDF/newsletters/Bryston_Newsletter_V5_2.pdf
Q: So how can you choose the right cable?
____________
P.S. The word "nonsense" is not in my vocabulary, never was, never will.
<<<>>> http://bryston.com/PDF/newsletters/Bryston_Newsletter_V5_2.pdf
Q: So how can you choose the right cable?
____________
P.S. The word "nonsense" is not in my vocabulary, never was, never will.
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Well how about wrong? That statement about DR would only apply if there was enough loss to lose the lower volume to ambient noise and not be able to compensate.
DF96 Did you notice it was the same "expert" not Bryston?
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