That was the original point, it could be connected for a range of L's and C's. It's just all that soldering and unsoldering.
If you figure each pair at about 120 ohms Z, you'll need to tie roughly 15 pairs together.
Expect about 10 nH per foot, and about 300-350 pf per foot.
Cheers, John
do the same test with pink noise and you will gain my attention.
edit: and use an amp with a bit more damping.
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Scott,
While you are experimenting, here a trick to work with these cables easily.
Use the normal IDC connectors, take off the backs and solder to the metal connector parts. This makes connecting things interleaved (+/-/+/-...) like I suggest or grouped (++...--) as used by Nordost very easy.
I would not use this in a final assembly myself, but instead take the individual wired, but for quick experiments it should be okay.
Make sure to use enough pairs to satisfy the "Cable DCR <= 10% than Speaker DCR/Minimum Z).
If your amplifier is equipped with a decently designed build out network I see no point for the grouped connection... It will help however with amplifiers that are bit dodgy.
You can estimate the charateristic impedance of the Cable, it may be worth putting a zobel at the far end (see Robert Cordell's Book, the section on Speaker cables).
If you have the time, you may also want to integrate a full serious RF Lowpass Filter (at around 200-300KHz) into the cable at the amplifier end (LCL Pi Filter, symmetrical) in addition to the Zobel at speaker side.
Such a cable would allow to see which amplifiers benefit from serious RFI suppression and which do not...
Ciao T
While you are experimenting, here a trick to work with these cables easily.
Use the normal IDC connectors, take off the backs and solder to the metal connector parts. This makes connecting things interleaved (+/-/+/-...) like I suggest or grouped (++...--) as used by Nordost very easy.
I would not use this in a final assembly myself, but instead take the individual wired, but for quick experiments it should be okay.
Make sure to use enough pairs to satisfy the "Cable DCR <= 10% than Speaker DCR/Minimum Z).
If your amplifier is equipped with a decently designed build out network I see no point for the grouped connection... It will help however with amplifiers that are bit dodgy.
You can estimate the charateristic impedance of the Cable, it may be worth putting a zobel at the far end (see Robert Cordell's Book, the section on Speaker cables).
If you have the time, you may also want to integrate a full serious RF Lowpass Filter (at around 200-300KHz) into the cable at the amplifier end (LCL Pi Filter, symmetrical) in addition to the Zobel at speaker side.
Such a cable would allow to see which amplifiers benefit from serious RFI suppression and which do not...
Ciao T
Hi,
Well, if you poke a stick into a beesnest, what do you expect...
There will be very little difference, if ALL ELSE remains equal otherwise. Of course, normally there more differences than equivalent wire gauge.
As a recommedation, you may wish to consider using 1mm Solid Core mains wire. It is inexpensive, can be bend into suitable shapes and is easily fixed in pace (aided by it's stiffness) and the resistance is easily low enough for normal domestic speakers...
Of course, if you are wiring 2.5KW Pro AUdio Subwoofer drivers intended to be run hard I would make the same suggestion...
And while there is no reliable evidence that solid core wire sounds better than stranded wire, there is much anecdotal evidence that has been presented in favour of such a view.
Ciao T
Well, if you poke a stick into a beesnest, what do you expect...
There will be very little difference, if ALL ELSE remains equal otherwise. Of course, normally there more differences than equivalent wire gauge.
As a recommedation, you may wish to consider using 1mm Solid Core mains wire. It is inexpensive, can be bend into suitable shapes and is easily fixed in pace (aided by it's stiffness) and the resistance is easily low enough for normal domestic speakers...
Of course, if you are wiring 2.5KW Pro AUdio Subwoofer drivers intended to be run hard I would make the same suggestion...
And while there is no reliable evidence that solid core wire sounds better than stranded wire, there is much anecdotal evidence that has been presented in favour of such a view.
Ciao T
For wire inside the speaker, why would you not want to use the same wire that you run from amp to binding post? It's the same signal inside the box as outside.
Bill
The total resistance from amplifier to driver is the only relevant paramater in this respect. In view of their sort runs, relatively thin wires may be used inside the enclosure.
I have owned a number of professional Tannoy speakers and stil use two K3838's. Extremely thin wire inside the enclosure, and I can't believe Tannoy did this to save pennies. The mechanical advantages of using flexible, relatively thin wire probably outweigh the couple of mOhms this adds to the whole chain. Don't want fat cables hanging from your drivers, etc.
The total resistance from amplifier to driver is the only relevant paramater in this respect. In view of their sort runs, relatively thin wires may be used inside the enclosure.
I have owned a number of professional Tannoy speakers and stil use two K3838's. Extremely thin wire inside the enclosure, and I can't believe Tannoy did this to save pennies. The mechanical advantages of using flexible, relatively thin wire probably outweigh the couple of mOhms this adds to the whole chain. Don't want fat cables hanging from your drivers, etc.
There is a difference between what a manufacturer's chooses and what a DIY'er can choose.
You want to bet? I know a pro manufacturer who tried to reduce costs by removing two bits of card from the product packaging. On a £1500 item.
I do not have the time to read all of the 30 pages of this thread, I would like to quote the answer of Peter James Walker (Quad) about this question: "I am partial to ones that conduct electricity".
And my personalopinion on that question (as long as two cables have the same resistance): If you can hear a difference between two cables, do not change the cables, change the amplifier.
And i believe that for loudspeakers as well as cables between electronic equipments (as long they are correctly wired: shielded, shield connected only on the output side, separate shield connection).Most of the time, the difference of sound between cables is due to the manner the output unit can deal in current and phase with the capacity of the charge and how it is protected against rf returns in the feed-back loop of the output amp.
And my personalopinion on that question (as long as two cables have the same resistance): If you can hear a difference between two cables, do not change the cables, change the amplifier.
And i believe that for loudspeakers as well as cables between electronic equipments (as long they are correctly wired: shielded, shield connected only on the output side, separate shield connection).Most of the time, the difference of sound between cables is due to the manner the output unit can deal in current and phase with the capacity of the charge and how it is protected against rf returns in the feed-back loop of the output amp.
In a few of my set-ups, the external wiring (Power Amps to Speaker Input Terminals) are significantly shorter than the internal wiring (Speaker Input Terminals to drivers).
If total resistance is the critical parameter, that might explain why I sometimes delete the speaker input terminals and wire direct from amplifier output to driver terminals.
Bald assertion is not much of a technical argument.
Going back to my post #21, resistance is often the dominant factor, but with poor enough choices in amplifier and cable construction, C and L can conceivably make a difference in a limited number of setups. But... low resistance cables (low in comparison to speaker impedance) of the normal two wire construction, for most amps and loads, take the cables out of the audibility equation since the frequency response is barely altered and amps with poor stability margins aren't excessively loaded with capacitance. See the Greiner and Davis papers.
A lot of this is over my head but have we actually managed to debunk any myths at all so far in this thread?
1. Is there really an audiable difference with different cables?
2. What are the important factors?
2b. How does this translate into physical cable properties?
3. When does it become audiable? What are the critical limits to stay under?
4. Is there any reason why a cable shouldn't be as transparent as possible? If the sound is colored in a bad way (accounting for taste here) shouldn't you fix it at the source rather than mask it with cables?
5. What is needed for a cable to be neutral/transparent?
1. Is there really an audiable difference with different cables?
2. What are the important factors?
2b. How does this translate into physical cable properties?
3. When does it become audiable? What are the critical limits to stay under?
4. Is there any reason why a cable shouldn't be as transparent as possible? If the sound is colored in a bad way (accounting for taste here) shouldn't you fix it at the source rather than mask it with cables?
5. What is needed for a cable to be neutral/transparent?
Hi,
Yes.
We (with help from Bob Cordell and others) debunked so far the following myth's:
1) The only thing that matters in speaker cables is resistance.
2) The lumped LCR Parameter model is all that is needed to evaluate cable performance.
3) Thick cable is always better than thin cable.
Those are as Adam Savage would say "totally busted".
No reliable evidence has been presented to support either conclusion with any confidence.
Anecdotal evidence is often presented in connection with this, as are blind tests that are clearly and obviously flawed in experimental method and statistics...
This would appear to be system dependent.
For example Amplifiers of conventional construction using a suitable design build out network handle almost any combination of LCR in the cable fine, without oscillation etc., but rarely are hardened against RFI from the Speaker cables aerial action to any appreciable degree. Other amplifiers are not tolerant of high capacitance cables and so on.
It would seem that moderation in all areas is likely a safe course, combined with addressing the cable's aerial action inside the cable if we want to be sure not to rely on the Amplifiers design for RF rejection. This could be combined with adding a formal and specific inductance (say around 2....4uH) to always be there to avoid upsetting any amplifiers that have poor tolerance for load capacitance.
Of course, one may argue that the Amplifier designer should have done their homework and made the amplifier impervious to RFI, stable into all loads, free from any distortion and powerful enough to threaten current strategic arms treaties, so cables don't matter...
And one may argue that the speaker designer should have done his homework and made his speaker resemble a 32 Ohm Resistor (+/- 0.1%, 10Hz-40KHz) and given it 20Hz-20KHz +/- 0.01dB frequency response independent from any room effects and with > 100dB/W efficiency, so cables don't matter.
But in reality amplifiers are flawed, speakers are flawed and cables are flawed.
It would appear that networks that terminate the cable at RF Frequencies are desirable and that it would be good to have a lowpass at around 300-500KHz at the amplifier end of the speaker cable to prevent or reduce RF Ingress into the amplifier from the cable.
RFI limits are hard to determine, in doubt less RFi is better.
DCR of the cable (including connectors) should be less than 10% of the lowest impedance of the speaker (often equal to the DCR).
Transparent isolation is often laced with chemicals that corrode copper over time.
If as in "sonically transparent", no, cables should be as transparent as possible.
Strictly evidence based, it needs to match or exceed the systems requirements regarding lumped LCR Parameters and avoid RF ingress into the amplifier.
Often so-called "exotic" constructions can provide more suitable parameters in all these than simple "figure 8", however there is no magic that makes all exotic constructions better, some may worse than figure 8, appreciably so..
Past that, personal experience and various anecdotal evidence suggest that solid core construction using comparably thin foil or many thin solid conductors is often preferred over "multistrand" copper cable where the wire is constructed from many thin, individually unisolated wires.
However no reliable evidence has been advanced that would allow such a conclusion to be ruled true or proven, we have to wait for more research.
Until then using solid core wires instead of stranded wire may be considered something to do as it may aid sound quality, so we may do it "in case".
Ciao T
Yes.
We (with help from Bob Cordell and others) debunked so far the following myth's:
1) The only thing that matters in speaker cables is resistance.
2) The lumped LCR Parameter model is all that is needed to evaluate cable performance.
3) Thick cable is always better than thin cable.
Those are as Adam Savage would say "totally busted".
No reliable evidence has been presented to support either conclusion with any confidence.
Anecdotal evidence is often presented in connection with this, as are blind tests that are clearly and obviously flawed in experimental method and statistics...
This would appear to be system dependent.
For example Amplifiers of conventional construction using a suitable design build out network handle almost any combination of LCR in the cable fine, without oscillation etc., but rarely are hardened against RFI from the Speaker cables aerial action to any appreciable degree. Other amplifiers are not tolerant of high capacitance cables and so on.
It would seem that moderation in all areas is likely a safe course, combined with addressing the cable's aerial action inside the cable if we want to be sure not to rely on the Amplifiers design for RF rejection. This could be combined with adding a formal and specific inductance (say around 2....4uH) to always be there to avoid upsetting any amplifiers that have poor tolerance for load capacitance.
Of course, one may argue that the Amplifier designer should have done their homework and made the amplifier impervious to RFI, stable into all loads, free from any distortion and powerful enough to threaten current strategic arms treaties, so cables don't matter...
And one may argue that the speaker designer should have done his homework and made his speaker resemble a 32 Ohm Resistor (+/- 0.1%, 10Hz-40KHz) and given it 20Hz-20KHz +/- 0.01dB frequency response independent from any room effects and with > 100dB/W efficiency, so cables don't matter.
But in reality amplifiers are flawed, speakers are flawed and cables are flawed.
It would appear that networks that terminate the cable at RF Frequencies are desirable and that it would be good to have a lowpass at around 300-500KHz at the amplifier end of the speaker cable to prevent or reduce RF Ingress into the amplifier from the cable.
RFI limits are hard to determine, in doubt less RFi is better.
DCR of the cable (including connectors) should be less than 10% of the lowest impedance of the speaker (often equal to the DCR).
Transparent isolation is often laced with chemicals that corrode copper over time.
If as in "sonically transparent", no, cables should be as transparent as possible.
Strictly evidence based, it needs to match or exceed the systems requirements regarding lumped LCR Parameters and avoid RF ingress into the amplifier.
Often so-called "exotic" constructions can provide more suitable parameters in all these than simple "figure 8", however there is no magic that makes all exotic constructions better, some may worse than figure 8, appreciably so..
Past that, personal experience and various anecdotal evidence suggest that solid core construction using comparably thin foil or many thin solid conductors is often preferred over "multistrand" copper cable where the wire is constructed from many thin, individually unisolated wires.
However no reliable evidence has been advanced that would allow such a conclusion to be ruled true or proven, we have to wait for more research.
Until then using solid core wires instead of stranded wire may be considered something to do as it may aid sound quality, so we may do it "in case".
Ciao T
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