Again, for what purpose?
There was no doubt about the choice of the participants.
Do you think the LM3886 amp was more susceptible to the load?
Hi Andrea,
I already explained to you, there is zero relationship between measurements and what you chose to hear. I don't even know why you asked.
However, I can choose electronics on measurements and be successful (so can you). I can also choose good speakers on measurements (and have) and also knowing the company making them. So can you.
However, asking to determine what will sound better on a particular piece of music is a fools quest. Can't be done for reasons I already mentioned.
As for jitter, guess what I have sitting on my bench? An HP 5372A, and that will fully reveal how your oscillators perform. That's a $30,000 piece of equipment, and I can lock it to the GPS frequency reference as well for added accuracy. My lab is locked to the GPS reference with a 10 MHz reference signal through a distribution amp (HP 5087A). I have backup GPS receivers too. I look at signals with a Keysight MSOX3104T with all software unlocked. My Audio Analyzer is an RTX 3001 using the complete M.I. software suite (not a sound card). An AP or Keysight would be every bit as good actually, but the Keysight goes to 1.5 MHz.
Looks like I put my money where my mouth is. Tell me, how do you test your oscillators? What equipment do you have access to that allows you to see how equipment is performing technically? If you are still in the dark ages with your equipment, then you are truly blind and old beliefs still hold true - for you. Not for me and many others who have invested in modern equipment.
Pushing your view is not defensible. You are arguing with seasoned designers and techs who actually work in the field at high levels. Don't waste their time if you won't listen. If you are manufacturing and selling something, you owe it to your customers to be correct and therefore should invest in the equipment capable of supporting your claims. Otherwise, close your doors.
-Chris
I already explained to you, there is zero relationship between measurements and what you chose to hear. I don't even know why you asked.
However, I can choose electronics on measurements and be successful (so can you). I can also choose good speakers on measurements (and have) and also knowing the company making them. So can you.
However, asking to determine what will sound better on a particular piece of music is a fools quest. Can't be done for reasons I already mentioned.
As for jitter, guess what I have sitting on my bench? An HP 5372A, and that will fully reveal how your oscillators perform. That's a $30,000 piece of equipment, and I can lock it to the GPS frequency reference as well for added accuracy. My lab is locked to the GPS reference with a 10 MHz reference signal through a distribution amp (HP 5087A). I have backup GPS receivers too. I look at signals with a Keysight MSOX3104T with all software unlocked. My Audio Analyzer is an RTX 3001 using the complete M.I. software suite (not a sound card). An AP or Keysight would be every bit as good actually, but the Keysight goes to 1.5 MHz.
Looks like I put my money where my mouth is. Tell me, how do you test your oscillators? What equipment do you have access to that allows you to see how equipment is performing technically? If you are still in the dark ages with your equipment, then you are truly blind and old beliefs still hold true - for you. Not for me and many others who have invested in modern equipment.
Pushing your view is not defensible. You are arguing with seasoned designers and techs who actually work in the field at high levels. Don't waste their time if you won't listen. If you are manufacturing and selling something, you owe it to your customers to be correct and therefore should invest in the equipment capable of supporting your claims. Otherwise, close your doors.
-Chris
I'm going to try some new measurements (PCBs are in fabrication) to get a more explicit view on these things... I'll make a topic about this adventure
Preference doesn't mean much, many prefer a bit of distortion. If what you say about it being more like the live performance is correct, there are possible explanations for that too. Measurements of the two events may even have contained clues, as it is we will never know.......unless.......
As for the bigger picture of correlations between measurements and perception, Floyd Toole has worked hard to find them.
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Floyd tried for years and didn't come up with an answer. Andrea's example is far more extreme.
Suffice to say that there will never be any correlation between what someone prefers and an exact match to the original acoustic event. My system far far closer to reproducing what sound waves originally existed, and other systems are far closer still. Yet Andreas prefers a system that has huge deviations from the original sound.
I accept that this is his preference, but it is anything but more accurate. There will never be any explanation. However, if someone were to make an effects unit with that transfer function, you could closely duplicate what Andreas is hearing on any good system. Call it the "single ended tube driving full range OB system effector". Stick that in front of a 3886 amp and decent speaker and there you go. You could save a fortune in 845 tubes and power costs!
Andreas, there will never be any correlation between what you prefer, and the original sonic event. You like your system and that is fine, but is sure isn't accurate at all.
-Chris
Suffice to say that there will never be any correlation between what someone prefers and an exact match to the original acoustic event. My system far far closer to reproducing what sound waves originally existed, and other systems are far closer still. Yet Andreas prefers a system that has huge deviations from the original sound.
I accept that this is his preference, but it is anything but more accurate. There will never be any explanation. However, if someone were to make an effects unit with that transfer function, you could closely duplicate what Andreas is hearing on any good system. Call it the "single ended tube driving full range OB system effector". Stick that in front of a 3886 amp and decent speaker and there you go. You could save a fortune in 845 tubes and power costs!
Andreas, there will never be any correlation between what you prefer, and the original sonic event. You like your system and that is fine, but is sure isn't accurate at all.
-Chris
You said measurements didn't correlate to choice, but you didn't take them. It is almost a given that the sound fields presented to the listener in your example are dramatically different. The SET amp will typically have large(r) deviation in frequency response and distortion. There is a large well represented group that like these effects.
Hi Chris,
I test my oscillators in the same manner are tested from the best oscillator manufacturers on the market like Wenzel and so on, using a dedicated Phase noise analyzer tool.
My tool was developed in 2010 so it's a modern instrument.
It uses cross correlation like the E5052B and thanks of its internal configuration I can measure DUT which are better than the reference (3 cornered hat measurement using a pair of references).
Indeed we (me and my co-developer) were able to measure -155dBc at 10Hz from the carrier for our reference oscillator while the reference has worse performance than the DUT.
The references are a pair of MTI 260 at 5MHz, around -140 dBc at 10 Hz from the carrier, so around 15dB worse than the DUT.
And just to clarify one more time I'm not an audio manufacturer.
We are merely hobbyist who are building a whole audio system for ourselves although our target are state of the art devices.
After several years the oscillators project is ended since we have reached the prefixed target.
Now we are working on the digital front end and on the DAC.
Then we will work on the amp and the speakers (although I have already got the drivers).
Our developing times is very long since we are not audio professionals, we have a job and a life.
Then we are sharing our designs on this forum and of course we cannot offer them for free, we are not Santa Claus.
We spent almost 5 years to develop our oscillators, so you can imagine the cost for components (good crystals are very expensive), PCB layout iterations and so on.
Usually I lose money when I arrange a GB, with the last one I'm trying to cover the developing cost.
We have measured our oscillators, they perform in the region of the best oscillators on the market like Wenzel adn Oscilloquartz.
Do they worth in digital audio?
I have my opinion on that but I can only say try yourself to get your own opinion.
So we think we are doing something good for the audio community, but if not so I have no problem to delete myself from the forum and stop sharing our devices.
Although someone has not yet understood (not you but several members of the forum) we don't need to sell anything, we have our job which has nothing to do with audio.
Audio is just an hobby for us.
I test my oscillators in the same manner are tested from the best oscillator manufacturers on the market like Wenzel and so on, using a dedicated Phase noise analyzer tool.
My tool was developed in 2010 so it's a modern instrument.
It uses cross correlation like the E5052B and thanks of its internal configuration I can measure DUT which are better than the reference (3 cornered hat measurement using a pair of references).
Indeed we (me and my co-developer) were able to measure -155dBc at 10Hz from the carrier for our reference oscillator while the reference has worse performance than the DUT.
The references are a pair of MTI 260 at 5MHz, around -140 dBc at 10 Hz from the carrier, so around 15dB worse than the DUT.
And just to clarify one more time I'm not an audio manufacturer.
We are merely hobbyist who are building a whole audio system for ourselves although our target are state of the art devices.
After several years the oscillators project is ended since we have reached the prefixed target.
Now we are working on the digital front end and on the DAC.
Then we will work on the amp and the speakers (although I have already got the drivers).
Our developing times is very long since we are not audio professionals, we have a job and a life.
Then we are sharing our designs on this forum and of course we cannot offer them for free, we are not Santa Claus.
We spent almost 5 years to develop our oscillators, so you can imagine the cost for components (good crystals are very expensive), PCB layout iterations and so on.
Usually I lose money when I arrange a GB, with the last one I'm trying to cover the developing cost.
We have measured our oscillators, they perform in the region of the best oscillators on the market like Wenzel adn Oscilloquartz.
Do they worth in digital audio?
I have my opinion on that but I can only say try yourself to get your own opinion.
So we think we are doing something good for the audio community, but if not so I have no problem to delete myself from the forum and stop sharing our devices.
Although someone has not yet understood (not you but several members of the forum) we don't need to sell anything, we have our job which has nothing to do with audio.
Audio is just an hobby for us.
Scott,
I'm not looking for any effect, I merely like to listen to the Steinway and to the voice of Mary Black as close as possible to what I have listened in the live concert.
Pandemic aside and according to my possibility, I like to cross the world looking for the best live concerts I can found, like this in your town a few years ago
BSO Warhorses Well Led - The Boston Musical Intelligencer
For me audio is the means of listening to music as close as possible to the live event.
You realise for him power amplifier distortion doesn't matter but he can hear close in phase noise 120dB down. Cult of Clock meets Cult of SET.
Or maybe the measurements failed?
There is a reason for the 2000 pages of this thread, we have different opinion.
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So you are Santa Claus, after all
. With an appropriate profile on LinkedIn "Progettazione e realizzazione Audio Alta Fedeltà" https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrea-mori-8195a035/?originalSubdomain=it
So you are Santa Claus, after all
Maybe the full profile is better explaining:
Senior consultant
Information Technology, Project Management, ERP, Netsuite Specialist, Management & Control, Costing, Business Process, Banking software, AS400, Visual Studio .net, Delphi
You (both) have already said that, we have understood you are able to copy and past.
And since you are so able to copy and paste, please copy and paste my reply too.
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What do measurements have to do with it? I assume the recording engineer and producer used ears only on the final product.
Who's "we"? Are you multiple business partners using the same DIYAudio account?
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