Russ, the biggest one ever made with that technology was a model 190 from Grundig, a bloody big beast, 89 kilos (app. 196lbs), 4 way, using 8 8" drivers, 7 2" dome mids and 7 1" treble domes. If memory serves, the lower placed 5 8" drivers worked as subwwofers, i.e. below 190 HZ, the top 3 as bass drivers to 400 Hz, the mids to 3.200 Hz. It had four 60WRMS amps built in, plus of course electronic crossovers. VERY expensive, sonically truly stunning.
The electronics were inside an external casing bolted to the back. This allowed Grundig to use the same cabinets and similar models in the traditional passive mode, and truth be told, they had a few winners there as well, there was a model 2500 or 2600 (can't remember which), a passive model, which sounded like a dream, very life-like, but to work well, being a 4 Ohm model, it needed some true grit on the amp side. That said, Grundig's own 5000 V integrated amp was a perfect partner, and that integrated amp was in my view the best they ever made on that subject. It used BD 249/250C twin pairs per side, and that baby has an ubelievable current capacits, 25/40A continuous/impulse per device. I still have it on my "to buy" shopping list, not that I truly need it, I already have amps coming out of my ears.
I'm willing to bet that 99% of the people here would drool and slobber if they heard them even today, almost 30 years later.
The electronics were inside an external casing bolted to the back. This allowed Grundig to use the same cabinets and similar models in the traditional passive mode, and truth be told, they had a few winners there as well, there was a model 2500 or 2600 (can't remember which), a passive model, which sounded like a dream, very life-like, but to work well, being a 4 Ohm model, it needed some true grit on the amp side. That said, Grundig's own 5000 V integrated amp was a perfect partner, and that integrated amp was in my view the best they ever made on that subject. It used BD 249/250C twin pairs per side, and that baby has an ubelievable current capacits, 25/40A continuous/impulse per device. I still have it on my "to buy" shopping list, not that I truly need it, I already have amps coming out of my ears.
I'm willing to bet that 99% of the people here would drool and slobber if they heard them even today, almost 30 years later.
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Your comment that you were "a little surprised" says it all - that technology didn't survive because far too many people saw Philips as the manufacturer of dishwashers, laundry machines, fridges and shavers, few realized how good they were in audio. Grundig was also regarded as a strictly low end company, so nobody was willing to believe they could produce something exceptional.
Actually I do have respect for Philips; I used their little 5" wide range speaker (the 5060 M8, later the Philips AD5061 which was intended for TV, I think) as a mid range driver in a few speaker designs I did in the early 70s. Used in a wide variety of enclosures and configurations from line array to open baffle dipole and with a judicious notch filter to tame the shout, it sounded good enough that in one listening comparison I set up, between a Quad ESL57 with a Quad owner playing his favorite record (Joni Mitchell "Blue") and one of my stranger designs (with a pentagonal top enclosure with 3 mids and 3 Philips dome tweeters - one on top - and only a single mid driver facing forward on the base of the pentagon) he was wrong almost half the time in guessing which pair he was listening to. My original aim was to duplicate the midrange quality of the '57 but enable higher levels and greater bass extension.
I found a reference to that Grundig speaker - it turns out the mid domes were 1 1/2" (35mm) and the tweeters were 3/4" (17mm)
Grundig MONOLITH 190 on thevintageknob.org
I think the model standing next to it was chosen for her petiteness!
I found a reference to that Grundig speaker - it turns out the mid domes were 1 1/2" (35mm) and the tweeters were 3/4" (17mm)
Grundig MONOLITH 190 on thevintageknob.org
I think the model standing next to it was chosen for her petiteness!
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As do I. The Philips HT kit, which numerous people sneered at, was actually at about NAD quality levels internally, and quite superior to the equivalent units, from the famous names, in the shops at the moment. Decent metal box, not flimsy plastic - and the electronics were good enough, with a bit of gingering in the power supply side of things, to give me premium sound on occasion.
Considering that the gear was about to be tipped in the bin, but I grabbed hold of it - not bad at all ...
Considering that the gear was about to be tipped in the bin, but I grabbed hold of it - not bad at all ...
Russ, Frank, bear in mind we are the boys "in the know", now what's Fred Bloggs going to think on the rare occasion he thinks at all?
Now, because I worked with Philips, I might be considered as biased, but I put my money where my mouth is. For 20 years, I used with much pleasure their 2N5442 mammoth tape deck, I own their Black Tulip series tuner, preamp and power amp, and I'm watching this on a Philips monitor. Oh yes, and I have owned a Philips rotray shaver for 31 years.
BTW, my own reference model for cheap CD players is still a long gone Philips 721, "modded" only by having one solitary dual op amp changed. But even without that, it was an unusually good model right out from the box.
Now, because I worked with Philips, I might be considered as biased, but I put my money where my mouth is. For 20 years, I used with much pleasure their 2N5442 mammoth tape deck, I own their Black Tulip series tuner, preamp and power amp, and I'm watching this on a Philips monitor. Oh yes, and I have owned a Philips rotray shaver for 31 years.
BTW, my own reference model for cheap CD players is still a long gone Philips 721, "modded" only by having one solitary dual op amp changed. But even without that, it was an unusually good model right out from the box.
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Last night at the pub my friend Martyn got very upset that people buy expensive fuses. He was pointing his finger at me as a spokesman for people who do. This set me thinking. Fuses do ruin sound. Fire ruins lives. So fuses it is. Any fool can see all the trouble we take to use 2 oz copper and reject FET's is for nothing when a wire the size of a thick hair is connecting the speakers. Myself I have no such fuses.
I thought I must tell you something which should have been obvious to us all and I think isn't. It started with a repair. Colleen's son blows fuses in his Rotel amp. To the extent he was saying junk it. Out of a need to find an answer I fitted it with 3A bimetal fuses. All is fine and sometimes he trips them. One guesses >5 amps if so. I was so concerned over the sound quality with these fuses that I fitted 1 uF 250 V polyesters to bypass them. It also tells Dan he has tripped them as there would be some sound. The Rotel has the fuses in the feedback path. Rotel told me that they had tried them outside of the loop and were horrified. Now the surprise. Dan says the amp sounds much better. I have tried it with the Magneplanars and have to say it is supurb. I also trip the fuses without trying too hard. The Quad 303 goes louder. That Quad protection circuit is a bit special.
This makes me think I should have extended the capacitors to the 0R22 emitter reistors.
Dejan. This is right up your street. Fit 1 uF to all of your emitter resitors. At worse it should do nothing. On cheap Japanese amps it might be a big deal to wrap fuse and resistor this way. Bootsrapped if you like.
I use a capacitor coupled amp. Surprisingly these often do not include the output cap in the feedback loop. That is a choice and is what was thought sounded better.
I suspect the the Dynaco bass loading almost equalled the Motional Feedback ( See also Professor Korn Belgium 1972, Servo sound ). The speaker box was the problem as it always is. Some say if KEF had made the other units it would have helped sell the product.
Back to fuses. Martyn said I shouldn't sleep well at night because I am one of the people who would sell expensive fuses to people. To which I said search my house, there are none. You all know me, I am the definition of mean. I got angry and said " It's not Ebola ". I also said I hate prejudice either negative or positive. Facts are facts and fuses are unfortunate. The reason no one should even begin to bother is the fuse holder still there. Where possible a gold plated copper wire could be hard soldered in. Speaker circuits for example. The gold is to keep it that way, it will slighly degrade the device. If the copper was in a vacuum or non reactive gas that would be ideal. Other metals might be marginally better. Gold is bad stuff, fools aluminium.
A friend in the industry said his customers are annoyed that he isn't making high grade fuses. What can you do? Tell me this. How did we go from wanting the best to being silly children ? I told my friend this is mostly customer led. Male jewelrery I guess?
I thought I must tell you something which should have been obvious to us all and I think isn't. It started with a repair. Colleen's son blows fuses in his Rotel amp. To the extent he was saying junk it. Out of a need to find an answer I fitted it with 3A bimetal fuses. All is fine and sometimes he trips them. One guesses >5 amps if so. I was so concerned over the sound quality with these fuses that I fitted 1 uF 250 V polyesters to bypass them. It also tells Dan he has tripped them as there would be some sound. The Rotel has the fuses in the feedback path. Rotel told me that they had tried them outside of the loop and were horrified. Now the surprise. Dan says the amp sounds much better. I have tried it with the Magneplanars and have to say it is supurb. I also trip the fuses without trying too hard. The Quad 303 goes louder. That Quad protection circuit is a bit special.
This makes me think I should have extended the capacitors to the 0R22 emitter reistors.
Dejan. This is right up your street. Fit 1 uF to all of your emitter resitors. At worse it should do nothing. On cheap Japanese amps it might be a big deal to wrap fuse and resistor this way. Bootsrapped if you like.
I use a capacitor coupled amp. Surprisingly these often do not include the output cap in the feedback loop. That is a choice and is what was thought sounded better.
I suspect the the Dynaco bass loading almost equalled the Motional Feedback ( See also Professor Korn Belgium 1972, Servo sound ). The speaker box was the problem as it always is. Some say if KEF had made the other units it would have helped sell the product.
Back to fuses. Martyn said I shouldn't sleep well at night because I am one of the people who would sell expensive fuses to people. To which I said search my house, there are none. You all know me, I am the definition of mean. I got angry and said " It's not Ebola ". I also said I hate prejudice either negative or positive. Facts are facts and fuses are unfortunate. The reason no one should even begin to bother is the fuse holder still there. Where possible a gold plated copper wire could be hard soldered in. Speaker circuits for example. The gold is to keep it that way, it will slighly degrade the device. If the copper was in a vacuum or non reactive gas that would be ideal. Other metals might be marginally better. Gold is bad stuff, fools aluminium.
A friend in the industry said his customers are annoyed that he isn't making high grade fuses. What can you do? Tell me this. How did we go from wanting the best to being silly children ? I told my friend this is mostly customer led. Male jewelrery I guess?
Why am I not surprised? We talked a lot about this, remember I use transistor limiting for overvoltage/overcurrent protection. Many argue these circuits ruin the sound, and I agree this can and does happen whne they are poorly implemented, because all too often they cover up for design deficiencies. But there is nothing faster or safer for protection than transistors. Believe me, I tried any scheme with fuses I could find, and they all came out worse that transistor protection. Remember, mine sleeps for the first 50 to 100 milisecs befaore it starts opearting, while its Toff is around 1 mS, as fast as I could make it. No fuse in this Universe can do that.
Sinde I do use fuses in the supply lines (basic electrical safety), I might be worried if I didn't use local 2,200 uF caps right next to the ouput devices. So they see only the caps and don't give a damn about the fuses, which are usually like 10A, so hardly human hair size.
As for cheap Japanese amps, what's that got to do with me? Let their owners worry about that. And if I were you, I'd investigate what your young customer was doing to that amp, because AFAIK Rotel pride themselves with reasonably high output current capability. I think he may have a problem, starting with an amp which is possibly too limited for his head banging levels. People think 50W is a big deal, and in many cases that is enough, but it ain't necessarily so.
FYI, I have in my entire life tripped a fuse except intentionally.
Sinde I do use fuses in the supply lines (basic electrical safety), I might be worried if I didn't use local 2,200 uF caps right next to the ouput devices. So they see only the caps and don't give a damn about the fuses, which are usually like 10A, so hardly human hair size.
As for cheap Japanese amps, what's that got to do with me? Let their owners worry about that. And if I were you, I'd investigate what your young customer was doing to that amp, because AFAIK Rotel pride themselves with reasonably high output current capability. I think he may have a problem, starting with an amp which is possibly too limited for his head banging levels. People think 50W is a big deal, and in many cases that is enough, but it ain't necessarily so.
FYI, I have in my entire life tripped a fuse except intentionally.
No matter where it's placed, the function of any fuse is to limit the amount of current passing through it. Standard blow fuses do so radically, by burning out and disconnecting thwo sides of the path, thermal switches do it as well but are resettable once they cool off below the threshold point. There are also dual metal circuit breakers, which are also a type of fuses, also acting on the thermal principle that when they heat up they break contact, but will reset it once they cool off a bit. In general terms, they can be fast blow or slow blow, depending on the time it takes them to act. Obviously, slow blow will be used in devices which tend to have very large instantanous peak currents, like big power toroidal transformers at switch on.
Essentially, they are used to protect a circuit from using too much current and burning out.
European safety regulations dictate that home devices must contain a master fuse of no greater value than 10 A. Thus, total allowed power is 10 x 230 VAC = 2,300 VA maximum.
Essentially, they are used to protect a circuit from using too much current and burning out.
European safety regulations dictate that home devices must contain a master fuse of no greater value than 10 A. Thus, total allowed power is 10 x 230 VAC = 2,300 VA maximum.
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The DH220 had a total of 7 fuses - 5 of which were internal ( 1 at main AC input, and one on each rail of both channels' DC supply to PCBs) and required removal of cover to replace. It was rather fun chasing down which was blown when only one channel went dead or distorted, which when driving lower sensitivity multiways such as Dahlquist DQ10s at house parties was not all that uncommon - particularly if you'd replaced the original glass bodied units with more exotic tweaky solid body types that even back in the Mesozoic era of the 70's was what all the cool kids were doing.
Brilliant, Dan, I don't think it could have been done better - sorta reminds me of a few members here, arguing the other POV ...
It made my day too, I nearly wet myself laughing loudly out aloud.
Sure has...I had no idea there are quite so many, the list is endless, and the ones I watched are all hilarious.
This one is very apt - Hitler plans to troll forums
Dan.
Yes, that crossed my mind alsoBrilliant, Dan, I don't think it could have been done better - sorta reminds me of a few members here, arguing the other POV ...
.Dan.
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