Eer, I missed out on that one for some reason.
Your buddy doesn't do HAT tricks, by chance ?
Talk about an ultimate "effects box" - an audio friend used to ceasefully fiddle with a low cost TT, in the end there was very little left that was original in the beast, 
. It certainly is a good way of making a recording sound like anything you want - shame that one never gets to know what the "real" recording is like, that way ...
. It certainly is a good way of making a recording sound like anything you want - shame that one never gets to know what the "real" recording is like, that way ... Maths fun again
16/Phi = Pi squared to 0.0959% Phi = 1.61803398875
Felt mat for LP12 is good. Cork plus neoprene composite also as it is chaotic without high Q of rubber. Damping the platter is good. Damping the disc is not automatically good. Hi fi choice found felt surprisingly linear. Chaotic materials exhibit linearity often ( always ?) as they do not have the right qualities to create resonance. If you want something to resonate make it equal mass and size. The mass ratios of Linn and Thorens platters help to deal with the primary problem, very effective. For those who have never seen them they are close cousins in every component. Difference being details and tolerances.
16/Phi = Pi squared to 0.0959% Phi = 1.61803398875
Felt mat for LP12 is good. Cork plus neoprene composite also as it is chaotic without high Q of rubber. Damping the platter is good. Damping the disc is not automatically good. Hi fi choice found felt surprisingly linear. Chaotic materials exhibit linearity often ( always ?) as they do not have the right qualities to create resonance. If you want something to resonate make it equal mass and size. The mass ratios of Linn and Thorens platters help to deal with the primary problem, very effective. For those who have never seen them they are close cousins in every component. Difference being details and tolerances.
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Yes, the felt mat works very well on the LInn and others. Cork mats can work well, too.
Just to be clear, I was recommending a stiffer bottom cover for the Thorens TD-145. I have never modified a Linn, so am not able to offer an opinion.
The volume of air inside the plinth is the same whether the bottom cover is made of rice paper or cement. I don't know how that air can be both "from the speakers" and "trapped" inside the plinth, but if you are referring to acoustic energy (from speakers or any other external source) affecting that volume of air, then a bottom cover with more rigidity, mass, and damping will both reduce the intensity of air-borne (and structure-borne) acoustic energy reaching the interior of the plinth, and it will also require considerably more acoustic energy to excite any structural vibration modes.
Again, I have no opinion about the Linn plinth, and we weren't discussing the 160S but the 145 (and standard 160). Here is a picture of a MkI TD-160 plinth:
There is no solid wood anywhere except the corner braces, the cable-outlet anchor piece, and the transit-screw supports. The particle board is about 0.5" thick, very light, and rings like a bell. Indeed, when Thorens produced the 160 Super, the changes they made included deeper and thicker plinth material, a thicker, stiffer bottom cover, and damping material on the sub-chassis. This is similar to what I did to my MkI -- thicker, stiffer bottom cover; 0.5" MDF battens glued in to reinforce the plinth; damping material applied to the subchassis. Additionally I damped the top plate and the inner platter.
Some who have added a better bottom cover have left at least openings for access to the suspension adjustments and the underside of the tonearm, and some have combined those into one large opening. The plinth still benefits from the additional mass, rigidity, and damping.
The whole point of the AR/Thorens/Ariston/etc architecture is to isolate the platter/tonearm system from vibration sources, be they motor, structural, or acoustic. Anything that improves that isolation is good, and the structural integrity of the plinth is a good place to start.
That is true of any arm/cartridge system. The MkI TP16 has an effective mass of 16.5g (later incarnations had effective mass of 12.5g, 10g, and 7.5g). The V15/III had a compliance of about 22cu and a mass of about 6.5g; allow a gram or so for mounting hardware and you get a resonant frequency of about 7Hz, which is not ideal. More mass would drop it even lower. Not a great match.
While I like a lot of things about the TP16, I dislike the cartridge mounting system and the multiple interfaces of dissimilar materials, which tend to create reflection points and resonances. The bearings are very nice though, when properly adjusted. It was a terrible match with the Signet TK7E that was installed on it when I got it, which is both heavier and more compliant than the V15/III. It is a testament to the TP16 and to the TD160 design that it sounded as good as it did.
The volume of air with the base of a TD 160 removed is not really the point. Being a Helmholtz resonator is. As John Mitchell showed liberating an LP12/TD160 could be better. If anyone has worked on a TD 160 effectively they have worked on a Linn.
I said previously the suspension on an LP12 to my mind is mostly about isolating the stylus from mass. The mass of the platter is far from minimal so that we might call it optimum mass in the right place. Linn favour low mass ridged tables like coffee table to support the LP12. This is a very important thing. I use a very simple device from The Sound Organization made by Fabriweld. As Fabriweld made the Linn speaker stands I am surprised they never sold these tables. If you have an LP12/TD160 try without the bottom. Raise the turntable 1`inch to take full advantage. The TD160's I sold were without base and raised on rubber door stops. I said I didn't sell many TD 160. That wasn't true looking back. I was always at Gill and Co the worlds oldest ironmonger cleaning them out of doorstops. In the Inspector Morse series as part of a murder plot. The arm I fitted was ADC, a close cousin to Linn arms. The pick up Ortofon VMS20E or M20FL. The latter was a giant killer.
Thus the base of a LP12/TD160 is important. It is not just the hardboard bit. People forget the RIAA correction fights us. We have + 20 dB at 20 Hz. Also cartridge resonance. The Platter resonance of LP12 and TD160 is stated as about 25 Hz. It becomes clear that is where the problems will be. The spring frequency is about 6 Hz.
More fun with numbers
Pi power 2.7 = 21.994022057896
Pi power 1.7 = 7.0009145579726
Pi^2.7/Pi^1.7 =Pi.
The sound of LP12 Ekos DL110 is very like the Troika, slightly dull. I disliked the Troika for that until I built it a preamp, The Karma I thought better. I have to build a pre amp for a friend so I should use his as an experiment. On the whole the LP12 is 110% of what I hoped for. In terms of expectations the TD145 even more. If the TD145 is better than the LP12 in that it doesn't attempt bass that it can not do. The LP12 sounds like a low damping factor amp. When a valve amp that is fine if the rhythm of the source is tight it still sounds tight. Anyone who wonders how come the LP12 was in the loft should ask another question. How come when very poor I resisted the temptation to sell it? The Garrard 301/401 turntables equal LP12 totally and betters it occasionally. Ironically it is modern music that favours Garrard. A review I lent a Garrard to said his LP12 sounded like a slightly drunk aged performer who is so accomplished he can not fail. Even so he is drunk. That's about right. But you see he and I still use our Linns. He bought a Garrard for the magazine. I dare say until 1953 the RAF valued it's Spitfires? Mitchel it's designer wasn't qualified as far as I know. That's dam unfair . How can the ME 109 defeat an unqualified engineer? He gave his life for the Spitfire as it advanced his cancer. Like my Linn stories I am the one going on Folk Law now. ME 109's had Merlin's before using a German engine. How bloody daft RR. The film of the Spitfire has RR saying they have an engine for him. If so how come the 109 had it first . The first victim of war is the truth.
I said previously the suspension on an LP12 to my mind is mostly about isolating the stylus from mass. The mass of the platter is far from minimal so that we might call it optimum mass in the right place. Linn favour low mass ridged tables like coffee table to support the LP12. This is a very important thing. I use a very simple device from The Sound Organization made by Fabriweld. As Fabriweld made the Linn speaker stands I am surprised they never sold these tables. If you have an LP12/TD160 try without the bottom. Raise the turntable 1`inch to take full advantage. The TD160's I sold were without base and raised on rubber door stops. I said I didn't sell many TD 160. That wasn't true looking back. I was always at Gill and Co the worlds oldest ironmonger cleaning them out of doorstops. In the Inspector Morse series as part of a murder plot. The arm I fitted was ADC, a close cousin to Linn arms. The pick up Ortofon VMS20E or M20FL. The latter was a giant killer.
Thus the base of a LP12/TD160 is important. It is not just the hardboard bit. People forget the RIAA correction fights us. We have + 20 dB at 20 Hz. Also cartridge resonance. The Platter resonance of LP12 and TD160 is stated as about 25 Hz. It becomes clear that is where the problems will be. The spring frequency is about 6 Hz.
More fun with numbers
Pi power 2.7 = 21.994022057896
Pi power 1.7 = 7.0009145579726
Pi^2.7/Pi^1.7 =Pi.
The sound of LP12 Ekos DL110 is very like the Troika, slightly dull. I disliked the Troika for that until I built it a preamp, The Karma I thought better. I have to build a pre amp for a friend so I should use his as an experiment. On the whole the LP12 is 110% of what I hoped for. In terms of expectations the TD145 even more. If the TD145 is better than the LP12 in that it doesn't attempt bass that it can not do. The LP12 sounds like a low damping factor amp. When a valve amp that is fine if the rhythm of the source is tight it still sounds tight. Anyone who wonders how come the LP12 was in the loft should ask another question. How come when very poor I resisted the temptation to sell it? The Garrard 301/401 turntables equal LP12 totally and betters it occasionally. Ironically it is modern music that favours Garrard. A review I lent a Garrard to said his LP12 sounded like a slightly drunk aged performer who is so accomplished he can not fail. Even so he is drunk. That's about right. But you see he and I still use our Linns. He bought a Garrard for the magazine. I dare say until 1953 the RAF valued it's Spitfires? Mitchel it's designer wasn't qualified as far as I know. That's dam unfair . How can the ME 109 defeat an unqualified engineer? He gave his life for the Spitfire as it advanced his cancer. Like my Linn stories I am the one going on Folk Law now. ME 109's had Merlin's before using a German engine. How bloody daft RR. The film of the Spitfire has RR saying they have an engine for him. If so how come the 109 had it first . The first victim of war is the truth.
1977 B&K study of what's going on....worth reading every word. TT Design/MechanicalResonances.pdf
Dan.
Spot on Max.
Show us your LP12!
At last a genuine Ariston RD11. Some say Hamish Robertson designed the RD11. This would be like saying Honda designed the CB750 and ignore their racing nemesis MV Augusta, Gilera et al.
The fact Roberson sold the Arison company when only a few months old and couldn't pay for the next batch says it all. That Robertson lit the fuse no doubt. It was a well known fuse. Son of Thorens and Son of AR. I dare say if we look back in time even AR is a copy. Philips were doing something similar is 1953. Ivor told me the dispute was over the cost of the bearing. I suspect Hamish thought he was being ripped off? Jack Tiefenbrun told Ivor that without the bearing it was only a Thorens. Problem is people never look at the facts. Without Castlemilk and Ivor bending his dads ear there would never have been RD11. The dreamer then ran away leaving debts. The jealousy Linn creates seems to spread far further than competitors. When Terry O'Sullivan won best turntable award in Germany for the Garrard 501 Ivor stopped us and said " What have you got there lads" ? When told he said " I should be jealous but I am not the jealous type. Well done ". Pointing his finger he said " Now show those miserable b-sta-ds over there and say Ivor sent you". The huddle were the British Hi Fi press. They were absolutely bemused.
Show us your LP12!
At last a genuine Ariston RD11. Some say Hamish Robertson designed the RD11. This would be like saying Honda designed the CB750 and ignore their racing nemesis MV Augusta, Gilera et al.
The fact Roberson sold the Arison company when only a few months old and couldn't pay for the next batch says it all. That Robertson lit the fuse no doubt. It was a well known fuse. Son of Thorens and Son of AR. I dare say if we look back in time even AR is a copy. Philips were doing something similar is 1953. Ivor told me the dispute was over the cost of the bearing. I suspect Hamish thought he was being ripped off? Jack Tiefenbrun told Ivor that without the bearing it was only a Thorens. Problem is people never look at the facts. Without Castlemilk and Ivor bending his dads ear there would never have been RD11. The dreamer then ran away leaving debts. The jealousy Linn creates seems to spread far further than competitors. When Terry O'Sullivan won best turntable award in Germany for the Garrard 501 Ivor stopped us and said " What have you got there lads" ? When told he said " I should be jealous but I am not the jealous type. Well done ". Pointing his finger he said " Now show those miserable b-sta-ds over there and say Ivor sent you". The huddle were the British Hi Fi press. They were absolutely bemused.
http://www.garrard501.com/aud1005_p0120_Garrard501.pdf
This is the turntable I mentioned. Friends would say I designed it. Like Hamish/Ivor I didn't. I followed a path set by Linn and Garrard. I never changed one thing on a 301 except quality of the component and bearing housing size. Experience told me that was a mistake. The motor is my design made from humble parts scavenged from a centrifuge motor. We had 160 of them. The -79 dB came from 95% a 401 bearing. The first thing the shed engineers do is change the bearing in a 401!!!
The suspension is simple squash balls. It works. Everyone tells me MDF is wrong. It works ( Logic's Dave Griffiths taught me that ). The stainless steel chassis wasn't wrong. I have understood from that it can be considered part of the platter. It doesn't have to rotate, the MDF stops loop resonance. Putting the mass in the platter be it Linn or Garrard seems to be a mistake with motors and bearing choices I had. All heavy platters I have heard seem to be wrong. The Verdier not so, the magnetic levitation must be helping.
The magazine bought this turntable. I guess that says it all ? I could never afford one myself. The magazine said the performance reminded them of a tape deck more than other turntables. That was how I saw it also.
The idler vibration is about 2.5 Hz depending on speed. The motor about 25 and 104 Hz . It was not easy to say if the 2.5 Hz not there. It seemed it wasn't on measurement. The idler is a swine to get right.
This is the turntable I mentioned. Friends would say I designed it. Like Hamish/Ivor I didn't. I followed a path set by Linn and Garrard. I never changed one thing on a 301 except quality of the component and bearing housing size. Experience told me that was a mistake. The motor is my design made from humble parts scavenged from a centrifuge motor. We had 160 of them. The -79 dB came from 95% a 401 bearing. The first thing the shed engineers do is change the bearing in a 401!!!
The suspension is simple squash balls. It works. Everyone tells me MDF is wrong. It works ( Logic's Dave Griffiths taught me that ). The stainless steel chassis wasn't wrong. I have understood from that it can be considered part of the platter. It doesn't have to rotate, the MDF stops loop resonance. Putting the mass in the platter be it Linn or Garrard seems to be a mistake with motors and bearing choices I had. All heavy platters I have heard seem to be wrong. The Verdier not so, the magnetic levitation must be helping.
The magazine bought this turntable. I guess that says it all ? I could never afford one myself. The magazine said the performance reminded them of a tape deck more than other turntables. That was how I saw it also.
The idler vibration is about 2.5 Hz depending on speed. The motor about 25 and 104 Hz . It was not easy to say if the 2.5 Hz not there. It seemed it wasn't on measurement. The idler is a swine to get right.
Jimmy Page: How we wrote Stairway to Heaven - BBC News - YouTube
Curious, What model of Thorens is Jimmy using in the video? What is the arm?
For Zep Lovers, What a great video, Spine Tingles for me, and I feel like I know Him personally..
Curious, What model of Thorens is Jimmy using in the video? What is the arm?
For Zep Lovers, What a great video, Spine Tingles for me, and I feel like I know Him personally..
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TD160 and TP16 improved I think. It might just be an S? My TD145 is almost the same apart from the arm detaching nearer the bearing on improved.
The RD11 I showed should have two o-rings on the platter and the plinth is slightly wrong. I think that was a LP12 mK1 of the rejected 100. The two buttons give the clue. The Ariston arm board is saying what it might have said if the invoice had been paid. I wonder if this customer bought one direct from Castlemilk through the back door?
John might have been told this story. The Labour government had been approached by the Soviets for a hi fi systems for their special people. Linn SME Quad Spendor BC1. Ivor refused. When asked he said it would mean 1 year of production wrapped up. Ivor said it would have been death for Linn as he had just established his ownership was starting his unique attack of the frozen minds of hi fi people. Namely " if it sound better it is better". We still battle a lot with that concept here even now.
Ivor said the Labour party led by Harold Wilson got very heavy with him. Wilson was said by some to be directly in the control of Moscow. I have no idea myself as I never met him. To say Ivor had a quest is to say it mildly.
The RD11 I showed should have two o-rings on the platter and the plinth is slightly wrong. I think that was a LP12 mK1 of the rejected 100. The two buttons give the clue. The Ariston arm board is saying what it might have said if the invoice had been paid. I wonder if this customer bought one direct from Castlemilk through the back door?
John might have been told this story. The Labour government had been approached by the Soviets for a hi fi systems for their special people. Linn SME Quad Spendor BC1. Ivor refused. When asked he said it would mean 1 year of production wrapped up. Ivor said it would have been death for Linn as he had just established his ownership was starting his unique attack of the frozen minds of hi fi people. Namely " if it sound better it is better". We still battle a lot with that concept here even now.
Ivor said the Labour party led by Harold Wilson got very heavy with him. Wilson was said by some to be directly in the control of Moscow. I have no idea myself as I never met him. To say Ivor had a quest is to say it mildly.
Turntable performance is definitely listen then measure. As the cutting process is fraught with problems one should not infer that arm resonance etc is a bad thing. Like colour correction two errors that must exist anyway can create neutrality. Myself I like slight exaggeration of the bass as it compensates for cutting loss . Not a gross effect. A friend you can invite if you choose. Just as you would in photography.
I said early that the DL 110 is a bit dark sounding. So to tweak the 75 uS seems in order. The technical graphs say the same. I will go further and make the tweak variable to suit some delightful non RIAA records I have. It might be in order with the LP12 to adjust the 3180 uS and even 318. If reference settings are available why not? My Garrard 401, Hadcock 228 Ortofon M25 should be highly accurate. For that I will need exact RIAA. I can tell you that the M25 Calibration is a cartridge made in Heaven. Apparently I spoke to a very old gentleman from Ortofon German who worked for the company in WW2. My friend who brought the cartridge to me said he liked you and sent you this. To say it is prized is the least of it. I don't know his name and suspect he is with his maker now? A very tall man and was about 85 when I met him. One doesn't see many tall old men.
I said early that the DL 110 is a bit dark sounding. So to tweak the 75 uS seems in order. The technical graphs say the same. I will go further and make the tweak variable to suit some delightful non RIAA records I have. It might be in order with the LP12 to adjust the 3180 uS and even 318. If reference settings are available why not? My Garrard 401, Hadcock 228 Ortofon M25 should be highly accurate. For that I will need exact RIAA. I can tell you that the M25 Calibration is a cartridge made in Heaven. Apparently I spoke to a very old gentleman from Ortofon German who worked for the company in WW2. My friend who brought the cartridge to me said he liked you and sent you this. To say it is prized is the least of it. I don't know his name and suspect he is with his maker now? A very tall man and was about 85 when I met him. One doesn't see many tall old men.
When I first knew Linn it wasn't Thorens nor Ariston that was quoted as being ripped off it was this.
Connoisseur - Craftsman - Vinyl Engine
Myself it is difficult to image this bearing would be durable. Their arms I really liked. They always looked awful so had no following.
Connoisseur - Craftsman - Vinyl Engine
Myself it is difficult to image this bearing would be durable. Their arms I really liked. They always looked awful so had no following.
Looks like a silver version standard TD-166 MKII to me (TP-11 MKII)
So, what you're saying Nige is that it takes a miracle to get you to use Ortofon pickups?
Not at all. I sold 100's ( no kidding ). My most prized is VMS 20 E. Wish I had bought some to keep.
Now a confession. I sold more Grado as I got more margin and really liked Mr Harris who went on to be Moth marketing who sold me Grado. The Grado needed more care in setting up and was a bit weird. The thing I liked about both was the magnetic circuits.
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