That's a dodge. There is a hue difference of the credibility and reliability between a casual, sighted test like you read about here, with no info and not even sure that it even happened, and a well conducted well controlled and painstakingly reported statistically valid test.
Even if perfection cannot be reached, that's no reason to settle for mediocrity, unreliability and BS claims.
Jan
There must be a reason though, was it construction...was it parasitic's, was it shielding??????????????? There has to be some mechanism at work,
Quite honestly, I haven't the slightest idea. All I know is that when you bare a Tiger's electrical wiring, all you see is silver cabling for the radio comms. Copper on other functions, such as the lights.
Agreed on all points, Jan. My intent was not to knock well thought out and prepared tests. Even if not absolutely conclusive, they will provide credible statistical data at the very least.
There's real value in knowing that say 90% of the panel could not hear the difference, 8% were not sure and 2% did hear a difference, or whatever. These are very real pointers for the designers, for example.
Just to be sure, let me reiterate that I do not consider myself to have some unseen hearing or anything like that, the only thing that separates me from most people is that at my age I can still hear 16 kHz in 10/10 attempts. This is not common, but is nothing unheard of. BTW, this is no dodge, it's simply pointing out the fact that some people hear more/better than most. I cannot say how large or small this percentage is in the total audio population.
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I would say silver is often worse. It can sound bright and unpleasant. I am told purity matters. Continuous cast copper is well respected. My friend John until recently built magnetometers. Continuous cast copper was the material of choice. This has been advised many times to me. I am told OFC is mostly an aircraft thing. It stands up to vibration better. Thus the weight can be reduced. If PTFE wrapped this further enhances it as the temperatures can be higher and resists vibration fatigue due to damping. This reduces weight so makes sense. The original Nordost cable I was told was aircraft cable. Nordost secured the rights to use it for audio. A fine cable as it has the simplicity I like. I use 0.6 mm solid core .
from the Audiquest link, I rest my case..... But it is a good read if you are going to spend ridiculous amounts of money on a bit of wire.
and electrons whizz round cable at what speed? .......
Personally I would think that they (electrons) have so much trouble actually getting anywhere that a few crystal boundaries would pose no problems and as most audio tends to be A.C. in nature they are only bouncing back and forth a few fractions of a mm.
Anyway as this is sound quality vs measurements is there not some measurements that could prove or disprove the silver vs copper debate (all cables would have to be broken in first of course
).I would take any such claim by an Audio cable manufacturer with a pinch of salt, its marketing rubbish to make them sound good.
A good example of the above....from Nordost
On a more serious note, with this sort of thing being promoted how can normal measurements and electronic theory compete...as many seem to believe Audio is at the cutting edge of design and normal measurement's and theories that are OK for aerospace, military, automotive and medical just don't cut it for audio...Why.
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That isn't very scientific. Why does food taste good? We don't really know although we know enough to have an idea. Big risk to " market "food without research as to taste. Just to say I don't believe is more Bible than science surely?
Put yourself in the manufactures position. Any idea you have will cost large money up front to produce it. Get it very slightly wrong to loose your house. No joke.
Let me give you another related issue. By accident I know quite a bit about wine. I know these people as friends although I have no real interest. I like seeing the grapes and like the people very much. I have tried 1961 this and that. I can easily tell the difference and can almost be a connoisseur. Simple truth is I like Cava and more so than most red wines. For all that I understand the other persons argument. I love white wine from red grapes.
An idea came to me.Take the 1961 wine and see if it can be synthesized. Then sold at a 50% premium over simple wines to resemble a premium wine. One would never be allowed to say what the clone was. It would be fun for the experts to guess. I have met ones who seldom get it wrong so being a Sommelier is respected.
I do get the idea from reading people here that the makers of audio equipment are highly dishonest people. Worse than any used car salesmen. The truth is different. They seem to have wine snob type customers who guide the business. Where this is so awful is it excludes younger people who see hi fi as a very bad idea. Both the cable buyers and the hobbyists project a very uncomfortable picture of something best avoided. When I was young hi fi was aspirational. Now it is just eccentric. The scientists seem the most eccentric as they seem to like the machine for itself with no reference to music. I am as eccentric as any you will ever meet so would not promote myself as a guiding light.
Read the quote from #16208 the marketing for high end audio is 100% BS 0% reality give or take a few %. The really esoteric stuff is not only extremely expensive it plays on peoples beliefs and a lot of it is just a scam to get silly amounts of money for some add on or magic cable. The Nordost site is very entertaining and ticks all the esoteric audiophile points, aerospace cable, directionality, QUANTUM, break in its all soothing prose to make the believer they are getting their moneys worth...I despair because a lot of what these companies are promoting in the way of beliefs is not doing audio any good, getting back to more basic principle's and real physics would be a help, but then who would pay thousands for a bit of copper wire covered in plastic.....
from the Audiquest link, I rest my case..... But it is a good read if you are going to spend ridiculous amounts of money on a bit of wire.
and electrons whizz round cable at what speed? .......
Personally I would think that they (electrons) have so much trouble actually getting anywhere that a few crystal boundaries would pose no problems and as most audio tends to be A.C. in nature they are only bouncing back and forth a few fractions of a mm.
Anyway as this is sound quality vs measurements is there not some measurements that could prove or disprove the silver vs copper debate (all cables would have to be broken in first of course
I agree with that. All conduction except in super conductors is not the best thing I ever read about.
What I have been trying to say is if anything cheap well thought out cables sound best. Sometimes what the expensive cable has can easily be duplicated with cheap parts. Mid priced cables often the worse. My friend John comes from the Pro Audio and lab equipment side of electronics. His only belief is connectors matter. The XLR is already perfect in his opinion. I like DIN. You will never be offered a sensible cable. If you want it you will have to build it yourself. If anyone reading this made cables with a sensible mark up using my 20 cents cable he would do the world a favour. The worst bit is you will have no customers.
I think often a hi fi person will not bring home a new piece of hi fi . The wife will notice and all hell will brake out. A cable will not be noticed. The hi fi guru is no different to ladies with jewelery. He buys it because he is worth it. Now I will say something very clear. In most cases if I replaced those cable with my cheap ones and it goes unseen it will probably sound better. That is because I will research what it needs. I will spend no more than 2 CD's an materials. No one here or in the market has the slightest interest in what I have just said. There is the problem. It is a marketing vacuum where there is no truth. My truth of cheap is better will never be believed.
A German guy bought a Naim system from me. He had worked in a hi fi store. He told me of the customers and their beliefs. One guy paid big money to have some mercury cables made in PVC tubes. I doesn't need the obvious to be said. I asked the other obvious question. How did it sound ? " Absolutely awful ". When I asked how come this happened he said the customers are very quirky people and need no encouragement to do weird things.
Hear, hear!
On you being "... as eccentric as any you will ever meet ...", I'd say yes, and then some, but why is that a bad thing? It gives rise to some interesting ideas, methinks.
I think John Curl could come uncomfortably close to being in the hi end ? If what John says is 100 % BS I don't mind reading a bit more.
John always seems to have a good handle on the science and it seems tempered with knowing music. I loved the 10 Hz with Q of 2 for a pick up and quantifying it at +6dB.
Some of the high end is outside of my pocket as my only problem. I seldom ever think it BS. Macintosh amplifiers I am assured by Joachim to be less than I imagine. Would love to have one.
Many cars are not very good value. I have no difficulty understanding why someone bought a supercar. Doubt I would feel comfortable owning one. The ultimate piece of hi fi would be a new house for me.
This weekend I plan to do up my sons Thorens TD 160 TP16 arm and Denon DL110. I bet it will sound great. I have a new Garrard 401 being done up. I should also get the LP 12 out again.
John always seems to have a good handle on the science and it seems tempered with knowing music. I loved the 10 Hz with Q of 2 for a pick up and quantifying it at +6dB.
Some of the high end is outside of my pocket as my only problem. I seldom ever think it BS. Macintosh amplifiers I am assured by Joachim to be less than I imagine. Would love to have one.
Many cars are not very good value. I have no difficulty understanding why someone bought a supercar. Doubt I would feel comfortable owning one. The ultimate piece of hi fi would be a new house for me.
This weekend I plan to do up my sons Thorens TD 160 TP16 arm and Denon DL110. I bet it will sound great. I have a new Garrard 401 being done up. I should also get the LP 12 out again.
Cables are not directional...this is a real myth and to make matters worse music signals are A.C. so the current changes direction. I would put cable directionality as my number one peeve with audio myths, it just is not true and it is the sort of thing that gives audiophiles and the hobby a bad name.
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I've had my own views on slewing and John and I choose to agree but not over the detail.
I have often said John argues slewing from the point of view of a laid down figure. Myself I think it is current to drive the next stage.
Would someone like to put me right about MOSFET's. If we say a pair add about 1.5 nf to the VAS how the hell does the loop maintain up to 100 kHz? The Hitachi paper says about 3.28 mW required to do the job at this frequency. Now if the 700 pF per device is in series with a high resistance that might make sense. CISS is lumped term . Anyone want to solve this? 28 Vrms in 700 pF suggests anything other than 3.28 mW. How can CISS be other than where the device terminates which is mostly the source.
I have often said John argues slewing from the point of view of a laid down figure. Myself I think it is current to drive the next stage.
Would someone like to put me right about MOSFET's. If we say a pair add about 1.5 nf to the VAS how the hell does the loop maintain up to 100 kHz? The Hitachi paper says about 3.28 mW required to do the job at this frequency. Now if the 700 pF per device is in series with a high resistance that might make sense. CISS is lumped term . Anyone want to solve this? 28 Vrms in 700 pF suggests anything other than 3.28 mW. How can CISS be other than where the device terminates which is mostly the source.
Are you talking about the output devices? If so, your capacitance is off by an order of magnitude- Crss is usually 50-70pF for power devices.
Happy Birthday Nigel!
The opposite is true. The higher the conductivity, the stronger the skin effect, the less the current density deeper inside for a given frequency. Sigma (σ) can vary from 1 to 100 (in % IACS)
Ditto for magnetic permeability. The higher the mu, the stronger the skin effect.
Variation can be large as mu (μ) can vary from 1 to hundreds of thousands.
This is one of the recent proposed theories behind tinnitus
I think you exaggerate a bit.
Silver plated copper (or all silver) is suggested and used for RF coils at the tens MHz and up. Bellow that, copper litz.
What was the comm. channels for the panzers?
Mostly below 10MHz (1-3MHz) for command comms
Mw.E.c, Radio Receiver, German WWII, WW2
Up to 50 Mhz for comms with infantry, artillery, aircrafts
LA6NCA, WW2, GERMAN, FUG10
LA6NCA, WW2, GERMAN, PANZER RADIO, 10W.S.c
Mw.E.c, Radio Receiver, German WWII, WW2
You can see some all silver coils inside these receivers (Mr. Curl will enjoy the cast chassis)
I would guess then silver plated for VHF antenna cabling outside the TX/TR boxes.
I would definitely say, selling pitch.
Not much extraterrestrial technology in conductor’s material there (even more disappointing, aluminium electrical wiring mostly for weight reduction). Excellent mil spec connectors though!
George
The opposite is true. The higher the conductivity, the stronger the skin effect, the less the current density deeper inside for a given frequency. Sigma (σ) can vary from 1 to 100 (in % IACS)
Ditto for magnetic permeability. The higher the mu, the stronger the skin effect.
Variation can be large as mu (μ) can vary from 1 to hundreds of thousands.
This is one of the recent proposed theories behind tinnitus
I think you exaggerate a bit.
Silver plated copper (or all silver) is suggested and used for RF coils at the tens MHz and up. Bellow that, copper litz.
What was the comm. channels for the panzers?
Mostly below 10MHz (1-3MHz) for command comms
Mw.E.c, Radio Receiver, German WWII, WW2
Up to 50 Mhz for comms with infantry, artillery, aircrafts
LA6NCA, WW2, GERMAN, FUG10
LA6NCA, WW2, GERMAN, PANZER RADIO, 10W.S.c
Mw.E.c, Radio Receiver, German WWII, WW2
You can see some all silver coils inside these receivers (Mr. Curl will enjoy the cast chassis)
I would guess then silver plated for VHF antenna cabling outside the TX/TR boxes.
I would definitely say, selling pitch.
Not much extraterrestrial technology in conductor’s material there (even more disappointing, aluminium electrical wiring mostly for weight reduction). Excellent mil spec connectors though!
George
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