Well if one can measure the required elements of a filter in a cable i.e inductance and capacitance between conductors then by what means does it not act like a filter ?I was talking in the mid rf range. the filter effect may or may not be much based on the amount of rf on the mains. Then manufacturer got slap on the wrist I think for over over stating the amount of filtering .
I will rephrase my comment, all engineered cables that are fit for purpose do not filter out rf to any great extent apart from the slight parasitic elements of the cable.
Filtering rf is a bit more involved than a bit of parasitic inductance resistance and capacitance. A cable is a cable not a filter, a filter has to remove the rf pollution by either shunting it somewhere or converting it to heat (very simplified for brevity) a cable generally just conducts it into the equipment (every cable is an antenna), hence EMC testing for conducted immunity, I often have to do layouts that are immune up to 18GHz (EMC engineering is an often avoided subject on here I notice).
One deference of silver was when at college 41 years ago. The wings of Concorde had been covered with strain gauges. On a regular basis they failed. It was found to be due to corrosion alone. Chris Bartrum my maths teacher said replacing a strain gauge is useless as it changes the data and needs recalibrating to be valid. A decision was made to change to silver in the construction. Not one failed from then on. When removed most were black. Even in the black state they were functional.
Chris never said why he was so fascinated with aircraft. When he died the local newspaper showed him with Sir Frank Whittle. Chris built the jet engine in the science museum. In an interview with my friend Martyn ( talking books for the blind ) he said for no good reason Whittle insisted every component was symmetrical. The way that jet worked it would have been fairly unimportant. His boss was a symmetry obsessive. Sounds like our industry?
Chris never said why he was so fascinated with aircraft. When he died the local newspaper showed him with Sir Frank Whittle. Chris built the jet engine in the science museum. In an interview with my friend Martyn ( talking books for the blind ) he said for no good reason Whittle insisted every component was symmetrical. The way that jet worked it would have been fairly unimportant. His boss was a symmetry obsessive. Sounds like our industry?
I'll add that saying we don't know how our hearing works is a strawman argument.
We don't know EXACTLY how it works, not in extreme detail how it works. But actually we know quite a bit about it, just search the IEEE website there are thousands and thousands of research papers on this subject.
I hear this kind of argumentation all the time when discussing science with fundamental religious people.
We don't know EXACTLY how it works, not in extreme detail how it works. But actually we know quite a bit about it, just search the IEEE website there are thousands and thousands of research papers on this subject.
I hear this kind of argumentation all the time when discussing science with fundamental religious people.
And the relevance to Audio and the difference in perceived sound between copper and silver is........NIL
I am beginning to strongly suspect that the perceived difference some hear is just that perception, in many years not one plausible explanation has been put forward as to why they sound different. Maybe I should ask my wife in the kitchen (not a Metallurgist) for her view on this.
I was 58 last night. We celebrate using the Dynaco 25's Rotel RA 931 and Sony DVD player. The music was Ska. Colleen uses that as a system, it sounds very OK. The big shock is I would swear the Sony DVD is vastly superior to many CD players, the Arcam I used recently for example. A bit dry and bland as the only critism. Detail is very good and no suggestion of dull HF. What really shines through is how excellent the Dynaco's are. They present music with different priorities compared with what we do now. Somehow it is better. The weird bit is the measurements show a reduced 18 kHz. The mid is unfiltered and uses natural roll off. This sounds more detailed and allows the brain to imagine the extended range much as 78 can. What is removes is fatigue. The sounds is very in your face so not what you expect. OK the box is heard, for all that not bad. The bass has separate notes albeit a bit dry. That is the aperiodic loading I suppose? As far as I know that type of loading is not possible in simulation. My greater suspicion from testing is port loading never works. Recently a port design was tried with all sorts of ports. All sounded to have one note. The one chosen was the calculated one. At least then someone measuring the port will see T&S to be in the expected range. One thing we did try was a loose fitting cotton cover behind the bass unit and retain the port. This seemed to work. The air hole for the wire was generous. The guy designing the speakers rejected it as he could not get his head around why it might work.
On slewing problems. Is class A immune to the worst of it ? When valves I think it is . When transistors maybe different? My transistor class A I built will go into AB above 8 watts. It will give about 48 watts into 3 ohms. Maybe what I didn't like is it went into the above 8 watt region when it seemed quiet. I was only looking for 8 watts so the headroom was a bonus.
My birthday card from Colleen. Even has lead acid battery power.
On slewing problems. Is class A immune to the worst of it ? When valves I think it is . When transistors maybe different? My transistor class A I built will go into AB above 8 watts. It will give about 48 watts into 3 ohms. Maybe what I didn't like is it went into the above 8 watt region when it seemed quiet. I was only looking for 8 watts so the headroom was a bonus.
My birthday card from Colleen. Even has lead acid battery power.
And the relevance to Audio and the difference in perceived sound between copper and silver is........NIL
I am beginning to strongly suspect that the perceived difference some hear is just that perception, in many years not one plausible explanation has been put forward as to why they sound different. Maybe I should ask my wife in the kitchen (not a Metallurgist) for her view on this.
Says who? How can scientific research prove what someone percieves?
I agree that not all silver, or copper for that matter, cables are the same, so there is no automatic function "if silver, then better", like Fdegrove I have also come across silver cables which did nothing for me. Then I found one which does do something for me, nothing revolutionary, but just enough so I can detect the very slight difference.
I will easily agree that test structuring is most important. But I still maintain that there is no perfect test, that no test can ever be taken as conclusive, just as the majority of test subjects' view or perception.
And the relevance to Audio and the difference in perceived sound between copper and silver is........NIL
I am beginning to strongly suspect that the perceived difference some hear is just that perception, in many years not one plausible explanation has been put forward as to why they sound different. Maybe I should ask my wife in the kitchen (not a Metallurgist) for her view on this.
I was told silver shows less skin effect. That is the signal will not behave the same when silver . HF can pass deep in the cable if silver . I have no idea if that is true. The implication is contrary to opinion, maybe silver is less of a litz conductor? Adding silver to a cable may by the fact it is the last layer confuse the picture. Litz was originally human skin. Tesla found cables to be similar. His friend Mr Clemens and he demonstrated how they did not die when high voltages at moderate frequencies passed through their bodies and projected as lightning from their fingers.
What might be true is leading edges of notes do need the 2 MHz the research at Oxford showed. This wasn't published as it was felt to be too contentious. I think it was me who suggested a servo mechanism for the mystery return signals from the brain to the ear?
I find myself in a strange position over this. Cables do seem to make a difference. Silver is different. I have rejected it as I am perfectly happy with my 20 cents a metre stuff ( it is near perfect for a miser like me ). With food I like good simple stuff. My big shock was to hear where silver has been replaced by CAT 7 if the number is right. This seemed to be better. Very marginal and the better might be the price. If anything is happening I suspect it is this. The silver was coax. The inner solid and the outer silver plated OFC . The symmetry is poor. The Cat looks to me to exclude RF by Blumlein techniques. The stranger effect was replacing the CD transport cable with CAT. That seemed a marked improvement. I don't get excited by these things. I just note it as cheap and why not.
I hesitate to say the next piece. I say it mostly as I feel it might just be the factor that can not be measured. I care not one fig that I am right. Quantum physics seem to be gaining respect. The seemingly stupid world of Quantum works. One implication of it is the experiment is always confused by observation. At a hi fi show I was put with some guys who I had never met before. Asked who I was there was a little smile. The question fired at me was " Nige, what's Quantum physics all about "? My answer " It's simple .It's God messing with your mind ". I was quick to point out that the atheist can believe in the God I mention as it is science itself and the seeming direction of the Universe. Organic compounds my simple proof. The gentleman asking said " Did not Richard Feynman say for it to be true a anything ( electron ) needs to be at one and all places in the Universe simultaneously" ? To which I said " That must be true".
The point I would like to make is . Could it be how we feel is more than just mood? That is, for something to work the belief system does come into it? This may not be so complicated. It may just he a byproduct of Quantum effects? How very weird if true. It could be the salvation of humans if this is true. A reaction to the false reality of where we live. Quantum physics seems to suggest we are locked into a false reality. It is only the reality of the perception of 4 dimensions so not a subjective thing. We just can't see the reality because we are limited in our perception. Quantum paradox is possibly just a brief viewing of the multi dimensions. I will give a very poor analogy. A TV set as fantastic as it is can not perceive food. Sure it could be corrupted to do that as the computing power is available. Maybe the measuring equipment we use is as useful as a TV set to analyze food? A small step but not yet catered for? I am as lost as anyone to know what this measurement might be. It might be emotional. You might find I am a very emotional person and you not. It means not very much but might make it impossible for either of us to enter the world of the other. Now who is being the bad scientist to dare say they know the truth of that?
One thing I do understand. Not believing something is the far easier route. Most good ideas come from someone seeing commercial advantage in an esoteric idea. The catalyst is the most bizarre idea. Those who found it and promoted it made money. Even to this day a catalyst seems weird. Something that aids a reaction but remains unchanged.
This probably will be taken as the evidence of a cable peddler. I know Bill and will say he is the least likely person I know of to be less than honest. A real gentleman.
http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf
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Nothing new under the sun, Nige.
The vast majority of German tanks from WW2 had their entire comms system wired with pure silver wiring. There is a reason for that, silver is too expensive and rare, especially during wartime, to waste on foolishness.
I think you will find that the theory of metallic conduction/resistance reassuring: higher purity means fewer scattering centres; scattering centres introduce resistance. Strange as it may seem, theory actually provides a mechanism for understanding the origin of Ohm's Law! As a physicist I am sure you already knew this, so why scatter FUD?john curl said:
Cables have distributed inductance and capacitance, and so act as a transmission line up to quite high frequencies. Filters have lumped inductance and capacitance.Triodethom said:
You can check this with a circuit simulator. Do an LC low pass filter; measure it. Then do an LCLC low pass filter, with each new L/C being half the value of the previous L/C. Divide it again. Repeat. Try different termination resistances. Think about what might happen if you could split the components an infinite amount of times.
Says circuit theory. A short interconnect is part of a potential divider. It provides a little series resistance and a little shunt capacitance. The source and load impedances make up the rest. Estimate the possible effects of a small change in the series resistance. You could even estimate the likely effect of non-linearity in the series resistance.dvv said:
Scientific research cannot prove what someone perceives. It can, sometimes, prove that what they perceive is not well-correlated with objective reality (e.g. the signals/cables in a circuit).
Silver plated copper is used in mil/aero for higher temperature environment, I would presume silver was used for that same reason. Nowadays the price would make that a no no. Though tank communications in those days were limited due to the ambient noise...the last few years has seen a lot of investment, research and design for vehicular communications and hearing protection (compensation for hearing loss and damage is expensive for the USA military), again though no fancy cables just mainly plain tin plated copper.
Skin effect of different metals...cant comment without further research, though I would think it either unlikely or a very small affect..I will research that later, though at audio frequencies its not a real concern.
Read the audioquest stuff, just never see this obsessiveness with cables in other areas I tend to work in regarding electronics.
Yes I do believe there is a point in silver vs copper, I have always been taught to find a reason not just blindly accept...and finding the reasons WHY is how science advances
Skin effect of different metals...cant comment without further research, though I would think it either unlikely or a very small affect..I will research that later, though at audio frequencies its not a real concern.
Read the audioquest stuff, just never see this obsessiveness with cables in other areas I tend to work in regarding electronics.
Yes I do believe there is a point in silver vs copper, I have always been taught to find a reason not just blindly accept...and finding the reasons WHY is how science advances
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