Believe it or not, here in Jakarta we have so many DIYers (3 big cities: Jakarta, Bandung, Surabaya) and people with very good ears. I think because musical concert performance (search for "Dangdut") has been long a folk tradition. Sinar Baja (hint: SBAcoustics) has been the providers for the drivers used in these traditional concerts.
I think this distorting concert is the reason for bright preference, and may be the damaged ears??? I have had access to old audiophiles but they all have terrible ears (compared to mine). But I consider 50 even 60 years old as young, and I know some with good ears (but honestly I have never met anybody with better ears than mine).
For some (may be me included) "ear training" was just a consequence of being unknowledgeable. Knowledgeable DIYers can be said non existent in my country. So you have to use your ears, and for years.
I don't really like argumentation because for me everything is clear. I'm open minded. I like to learn. But I don't like useless argumentation. In my book, if you want to learn, you listen, not speak.
I believe that ears is an extra tool for audio creation. It is difficult to say which one is more important: tool or ears because everyone uses both. At my level I would say my ears is more "advanced" because my electronic knowledge, my design skills, cannot achieve acceptable result without using ears. But both skills (ears and electronics) are required at any level. With intelligence, everyone can learn electronics. But I don't know how you can improve the ears. It is like intelligence itself.
Some people said they can design speakers without ears, but what was the result?? Even "without" tools and using only ears I can create better sounding speaker (time is the issue). If you are trying to argue about the subjective nature of "better sounding", well, no need. We design because we want to use it or we want others to use it. If less people want to use it, I will consider it worse sounding.
A small quote.
"This experience gave me an unpleasant premonition about the future of the high-end industry. The exhibitors could only play LP's for so long at the CES before they gave into the tide of weirdly artificial CD's. What would that mean for product design in speakers and amplifiers? For one thing, forget about super-performance tweeters that went beyond 20kHz; that was dead forever with the ferocious brickwall filter that had to descend 96dB (the entire dynamic range of the CD) in the tiny frequency range of 20 to 22 kHz. And the sonics themselves? How would even the most clever engineers get around that? "
That is true to a point. The speed of a very fast tweeter is always good news. What I found is the integration on some digital sources is less than ideal. My tweeter will do 50kHz. I drop it to -7.5 dB at 45 kHz. This produces a beauty of sound without the fierceness. No one can say - 7.5 dB is a big cut. What it gives is the sweetness of a soft-dome with the openness of a ribbon. The dispersion is good and the integration also. People forget whilst the discrete maximum frequency of CD might only be 21 kHz, the speed of the leading edge can be very good although dependent on the choices of ADC and DAC designs. I would stick my neck out and say CD more likely to need full bandwidth. FM also needs bandwidth. LP less so as often it is + 7 dB at 20 kHz and will have some information in the 30 kHz range. My Lyra PU certainly is like that. My tweeters sound absolutely stunning using the Rega P6 or whatever it is called with factory fitted PU ( yellow one ). This Rega seems to have no obvious wow and very open sounding unlike early versions of RB300. That was the icing on the cake of a Rega design as wow was it's weakness. I was using the new Naim Nait amp. What a star. It even images and still has the metronome quality. Considering that my turntable cost >$7000+trade I think I could switch it off and use the Rega. I also have a LP12 Ekos and whatever I choose to fit. I suspect the Rega is better balanced. It looks like it would blow away in the wind as my only criticism. It's external PSU I guess is the leap forward and the multi-layer platter. To my ears the Rega leaves any CD player for dead. Not always obvious why. It takes me 20 minutes to choose go do something else when CD if not too involved with the music. With LP's it is 3 in the morning to bed usually.
Wrong its not art, that's the music, reproduction systems for audio is engineering...
Cognitive dissonance is a very powerful process.
Here is a simple explanation of how human perception works. from 13.56 on:
Opus 4 Studios: James D. (JJ) Johnston, Richard Heyser Distinguished Lecturer - AES-PNW - YouTube
Engineering without art is called loosing teams in Formulas one. Williams with a small budget and right engine have the art they need to win. It might only be 20%. It is vital if you want to win. Some would call it vision. Engineering without vision is slow progress engineering.If you think I am wrong take your products to market. The non engineers can be dreadful in there lack of engineering knowledge. It is the art they will judge and how will you do? Go be tested. John Curl has. I bet he is an artist at heart.
Art or vision, different nouns, art in audio reproduction is a much misused term, vision I can accept, but not the connotations that the use of 'art' is trying to create.
Art is pretty drawings, pictures, making music...I do art I paint, do pottery and take pictures I also use to do music, I would love to be a full time artist but it doesn't pay the bills.
As to being tested in my day job I have been, I am still in demand for what I do because I do it extremely well, but I would not use the term art, vision possibly, persistence, physics, practice and perseverance, education (constant) are terms I would use. As to product on the market, there are many that I have worked on over the years that are out there...
But audio engineering is the application of engineering practices and some vision, the art is in making the music not reproducing it, audio engineers are not artists they are engineers...
As to beyond the mundane, what is beyond the mundane in audio, high end esoteric fancy cables.....
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Wow, what a joyless attitude. Sorry that you will never know what you're missing.
I've been a professional engineer for over 40 years, and know that this view is emphatically wrong.
DVV, right on! That is how I design. First the engineering, then the measurements, then the listening, AND if there is a 'problem' to attempt to fix it.
Right now, I am in a 'neck to neck battle' with Charles Hansen. We are colleagues and often help each other, BUT we are also serious competitors and we are always trying to get our designs to be #1, even though the other guy might get a close 2'nd place. Just like car racing!
I do not get very concerned about engineers, who only engineer, and not trust their ears. It is the audio engineers (the relatively few) who are both good design engineers and take listening seriously. They are my competition, not the average designers.
Right now, I am in a 'neck to neck battle' with Charles Hansen. We are colleagues and often help each other, BUT we are also serious competitors and we are always trying to get our designs to be #1, even though the other guy might get a close 2'nd place. Just like car racing!
I do not get very concerned about engineers, who only engineer, and not trust their ears. It is the audio engineers (the relatively few) who are both good design engineers and take listening seriously. They are my competition, not the average designers.
Why is it... There is nothing joyless about it, it is a basic fact...
How is it wrong...
And to be perfectly honest you don't know what I work on or what cutting edge designs or what fields of electronics I work on...so before you cast aspersions maybe you should find out the facts.....you do not know what I am missing and to be fair in my professional life I am not missing a lot, I spend a good half of the year on customers sites designing or consulting in my field of expertise, the other half back at base doing designs...and very shortly I will be going to Belgium to work on something for ESA...I'm happy and busy
How is it wrong...
And to be perfectly honest you don't know what I work on or what cutting edge designs or what fields of electronics I work on...so before you cast aspersions maybe you should find out the facts.....you do not know what I am missing and to be fair in my professional life I am not missing a lot, I spend a good half of the year on customers sites designing or consulting in my field of expertise, the other half back at base doing designs...and very shortly I will be going to Belgium to work on something for ESA...I'm happy and busy
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You keep mentioning "trusting your ears" ...this is an interesting statement, considering most of the people who use it, refuse to actually only rely on their ears.
If you guys have so much trust in your ears, why is it that when blinded, the ears fail to coincide with your anecdotal opinions to the point where people have offered cash prizes that have remained unclaimed for decades?
Is it just ego errwhat?
For the people who have a limited knowledge of perception, Wiki is a good place to start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception
Edit: The first paragraph explains why sighted tests in audio are useless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception
Edit: The first paragraph explains why sighted tests in audio are useless.
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