Easy Caesar i have a plan ..............
To quoque, mi fili?
Just to complete the sequence ...
What about you Frank, you have a lot of ideas, but nothing real, seems all virtual, to me. As to your question, I have done my due diligence over the decades and know what i want, I know where not to waste time.
What is insignificant at 8 ohm becomes a liability @2ohm, 1ohm , is normandy, it's similar stress load to a full high bias class-a amplfiers. Most amplifiers used over the years and not up to this task because of marginal transformers/PSU will have issues, their tonal balance will change and no, it's not unusual to have 2ohm -60 deg phase xovers in speakers ...
JM Lab
Wilson
Magico
to name a few !!
It's along way from Perreaux for me ..........
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No need to get tetchy ... all my ideas have developed from dealing with real bits of gear, seeing what the real machinery does, on the ground - if I based my thinking on my real world experience with other people's versions of what 'good sound' is, using the sort of components you've quoted, I would have given the audio game away ages ago - why would I waste my time and money extracting "that" level of sound quality ...?
Ok, thanks for the link, should be a good read ...
Looking back, I realise I worded the query poorly - in my head I was thinking mains power quality, not specifically of the circuit translating that to usable power inside the amp. Obviously the two are tightly intertwined, but to some degree they can be isolated - IOW, when your system is humming nicely, it's 'in the zone' - how resistant is it to the impact of possible interfering artifacts coming down the line, how much does what's going on outside the audio system affect the playback quality, if at all?
Looking back, I realise I worded the query poorly - in my head I was thinking mains power quality, not specifically of the circuit translating that to usable power inside the amp. Obviously the two are tightly intertwined, but to some degree they can be isolated - IOW, when your system is humming nicely, it's 'in the zone' - how resistant is it to the impact of possible interfering artifacts coming down the line, how much does what's going on outside the audio system affect the playback quality, if at all?
The noise floor, Dynamics and the bass quality is where i notice it immediately, the lights in my R/R will dim due to the current draw from the amplifiers. I have them now on separate breakers. When it's good, you actually find no need to raise the volume, low level detail is not lost ...
I wonder if there's some confusion over terminology here coz a trafo can't cause an increase in PSRR.
PSRR is rather like an amp's (here I mean the active circuits of the amp) immune system - the number (which is frequency dependent) tells us how well an amp can ignore the hash on its rails.
Changing the trafo to a toroid most likely does reduce the trash on the rails somewhat - by virtue of the toroid having improved regulation than other types. Improved regulation comes from having lower losses (copper and core).
So overall the normal mode noise is reduced and with the same PSRR in the active circuits, the amp's output is cleaner.
Is that what you meant?
Okay, that's saying how much interference is being sent back down the line, by the savage current spikes demanded by the amp's power supply trying to stop the rails sagging ... but if you have the volume very moderate, and then deliberately try and contaminate an audio spur by plugging in a known 'bad citizen', some electrical device that sparks or injects crud, how much can you hear "that" ...
Sorry for the misunderstanding,
...
There are two kinds of PSU noise - normal mode and common mode. The toroid reduces the former (as I've already mentioned) but increases the latter (as I've already mentioned).
Wayne, how come they aren't more audio manufacturers using E-core power transformers?
E core or R core? These and toroid are not nearly enough description of the device. There are a host of factors that can make a large difference in transformer performance that can't really be seen.
A toroid AC power transformer should have a strip wound core of high grade steel- M6 or better. They are usually run at a higher flux than an E-I core transformer because there is no cap and they can. Keep DC away from them because they do saturate easily with some DC on the ac line. Wound as usual with the secondary over the primary they have good coupling and bandwidth so power line noise passes easily. There are other types of toroid cores that are usually used for high frequency transformers (saturate easily at 60 Hz) or are used for common mode filters.
E-I transformers can be made from many grades of steel and typically are run at a flux level close to saturation. If you lower the flux you get a host of benefits and a much bigger price tag since your buying a lot more steel and copper. There are a raft of techniques for layering the windings for different applications and trade-offs. Don't judge them as a class from a few examples. Design and execution have a lot more to do with the results than type.
R core is the new hot option. It uses a laminated core with a trick winding bobbin scheme that allows the transformer to not have gaps in the laminations. Its a Japanese invention and not many shops are set up to make them so there is a premium. Also, typically the primary is on one leg and the secondary on another so the coupling from primary to secondary is reduced.
In my research and measurements a single power line filter won't cut it. The other components in the audio system may be serious power line noise offenders. All the boxes should be isolated. Effective power line filters are non-trivial and done poorly they just serve to couple the noise from one place to another, usually the grounding making things worse, not better. But the hash added by incorrectly applied filters often provides the missing "air" from slow electronics.
A toroid AC power transformer should have a strip wound core of high grade steel- M6 or better. They are usually run at a higher flux than an E-I core transformer because there is no cap and they can. Keep DC away from them because they do saturate easily with some DC on the ac line. Wound as usual with the secondary over the primary they have good coupling and bandwidth so power line noise passes easily. There are other types of toroid cores that are usually used for high frequency transformers (saturate easily at 60 Hz) or are used for common mode filters.
E-I transformers can be made from many grades of steel and typically are run at a flux level close to saturation. If you lower the flux you get a host of benefits and a much bigger price tag since your buying a lot more steel and copper. There are a raft of techniques for layering the windings for different applications and trade-offs. Don't judge them as a class from a few examples. Design and execution have a lot more to do with the results than type.
R core is the new hot option. It uses a laminated core with a trick winding bobbin scheme that allows the transformer to not have gaps in the laminations. Its a Japanese invention and not many shops are set up to make them so there is a premium. Also, typically the primary is on one leg and the secondary on another so the coupling from primary to secondary is reduced.
In my research and measurements a single power line filter won't cut it. The other components in the audio system may be serious power line noise offenders. All the boxes should be isolated. Effective power line filters are non-trivial and done poorly they just serve to couple the noise from one place to another, usually the grounding making things worse, not better. But the hash added by incorrectly applied filters often provides the missing "air" from slow electronics.
Cost , size, weight, Cost, cost ...and more cost, plus what Demian said .....
***:*:*** FM ACOUSTICS LTD. ***:*:***domestic products ***:*:***
FM1811
What about C-core Demian? R-core the same as "flat packs" ?
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@1audio
It is NOT a line filter's job to improve anything, its job is to get rid of as much line hash as it can before it even reaches the trafo of whatever kind. This would allow the trafo to work a little more efficiently and the elcetrolytics to act as higher fequency filters lees and as energy resrves a little more.
Obviously, it cannot help, by virtue of its placement, but also act as a buffer or decoupling between the devices and the wall output socket. This may or may not show up as a difference as well.
And that's the bugbear of all power line filters - there is no way under the sun to know in advance how the sound will change because there are far too many variables along the way. The most obvious is the inital power line quality, and they can vary wildly. For example, the first man living nearest to the local power transformer will have better quality of power than the last man on the same supply line. Then, the electronics themselves - very odd surprises are quite possible, I've seen and heard them on several occasions.
In short, the only way to know how it works for you is to try it, no two ways about that. I've heard all Krell systems move from flat and a bit dull to incredible sund stage evolvement, ditto Levisnosn systems; I for one was fklabbergasted, I would never expect that class of devices, at those prices and with their reps, to demonstrate behavior of that kind. I was hoping for a say 5% improvement and instead I got more like 30%.
What surprised me most was the simple fact even designs with full power regulation, such as olde Naims, to practically have no reaction to speak of, but it turned out that even they changed quite a bit. A Naim dealer in St Louis tried one belonging to a friend there and promptly ordered 3 untis for his showroom, commenting that he never knew Naim could do that kind of bass.
Of course, things become much clearer when you take a reading of your incoming power with a 'scope "before and after", but one can hardly expect all his customers to keep 'scopes around the house.
And there is no perfect line filter, mine for example will be partly stumped by my own HP laser printer, which appears to be a fortress unto itself.
Anyway, I honestly have no idea how Wayne's system might react, but it stands to reason that since it will use up a hell of a lot power to work, it should benefit by the filter quaite a bit. Ol' Wayne might turn out to be my star user.
It is NOT a line filter's job to improve anything, its job is to get rid of as much line hash as it can before it even reaches the trafo of whatever kind. This would allow the trafo to work a little more efficiently and the elcetrolytics to act as higher fequency filters lees and as energy resrves a little more.
Obviously, it cannot help, by virtue of its placement, but also act as a buffer or decoupling between the devices and the wall output socket. This may or may not show up as a difference as well.
And that's the bugbear of all power line filters - there is no way under the sun to know in advance how the sound will change because there are far too many variables along the way. The most obvious is the inital power line quality, and they can vary wildly. For example, the first man living nearest to the local power transformer will have better quality of power than the last man on the same supply line. Then, the electronics themselves - very odd surprises are quite possible, I've seen and heard them on several occasions.
In short, the only way to know how it works for you is to try it, no two ways about that. I've heard all Krell systems move from flat and a bit dull to incredible sund stage evolvement, ditto Levisnosn systems; I for one was fklabbergasted, I would never expect that class of devices, at those prices and with their reps, to demonstrate behavior of that kind. I was hoping for a say 5% improvement and instead I got more like 30%.
What surprised me most was the simple fact even designs with full power regulation, such as olde Naims, to practically have no reaction to speak of, but it turned out that even they changed quite a bit. A Naim dealer in St Louis tried one belonging to a friend there and promptly ordered 3 untis for his showroom, commenting that he never knew Naim could do that kind of bass.
Of course, things become much clearer when you take a reading of your incoming power with a 'scope "before and after", but one can hardly expect all his customers to keep 'scopes around the house.
And there is no perfect line filter, mine for example will be partly stumped by my own HP laser printer, which appears to be a fortress unto itself.
Anyway, I honestly have no idea how Wayne's system might react, but it stands to reason that since it will use up a hell of a lot power to work, it should benefit by the filter quaite a bit. Ol' Wayne might turn out to be my star user.
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Johns thoughts ...
"When we talk about transformers we have to separate power amps and preamps. While they are not perfect, Toroidal transformers are logical choice for power amplifiers because they are very efficient, they tend to have a fairly low hum field, and they're readily available in large power ratings.
For preamplifiers and other line-level components, the old type EI transformers or what's called a D-core or split C-core transformer is actually better than a toroid. First of all, they tend to be more compact, and second, and perhaps more importantly, they have very low capacitance between the windings.
This can be a problem when Toroids are used in low level signal applications; the windings are on top of each other so they talk to each other. And today the AC power is so dirty. We fix that by using a transformer that isolates the winding, which is important on low level circuits. The old style EI or the new C- or D-core is the ultimate in that respect-as long as it is a dual-bobbin winding with physically separate bobbins for the primary and for secondary. It makes big difference in sound quality."
I'm only using split bobbin transformers for line level equipment now, never had problem with buzzing."
-JC
"When we talk about transformers we have to separate power amps and preamps. While they are not perfect, Toroidal transformers are logical choice for power amplifiers because they are very efficient, they tend to have a fairly low hum field, and they're readily available in large power ratings.
For preamplifiers and other line-level components, the old type EI transformers or what's called a D-core or split C-core transformer is actually better than a toroid. First of all, they tend to be more compact, and second, and perhaps more importantly, they have very low capacitance between the windings.
This can be a problem when Toroids are used in low level signal applications; the windings are on top of each other so they talk to each other. And today the AC power is so dirty. We fix that by using a transformer that isolates the winding, which is important on low level circuits. The old style EI or the new C- or D-core is the ultimate in that respect-as long as it is a dual-bobbin winding with physically separate bobbins for the primary and for secondary. It makes big difference in sound quality."
I'm only using split bobbin transformers for line level equipment now, never had problem with buzzing."
-JC
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