Dejan,
You will find me generally having used a "above average" efficient systems all my life, from that little 5 Watt per channel Chipamp plus those big (thin) plywood boxes with these 8" Alnico Drivers pulled from old Tube TV's when I was 9 or 10...
Maybe, maybe not. I only "got into tubes" in the mid 90's after hearing Kondo's stuff. Before I pretty much had considered tubes outdated and over and something only some crazy musicians would want.
You may find that you have a lot less actual SPL available than a good high Efficiency/Tube based system. But here is the clincher. In the 1980's I used my 100dB/W/m Coral BX-1200 and my 98dB/W/m efficient EV based speakers with fairly big (50 -100W) Transistor Amp's and not tubes! I did have some studio tube Amp's as well, but only because they needed to be sused with speakers to get the correct EQ.
One for you to try. Move your system into a > 30m Room and get a second pair of your speakers. Stack them, tweeter to tweeter. Then listen with the top pair on and off, taking care to correct the 6dB increase in SPL from using two pairs by turning down the volume.
Ciao T
You will find me generally having used a "above average" efficient systems all my life, from that little 5 Watt per channel Chipamp plus those big (thin) plywood boxes with these 8" Alnico Drivers pulled from old Tube TV's when I was 9 or 10...
Maybe, maybe not. I only "got into tubes" in the mid 90's after hearing Kondo's stuff. Before I pretty much had considered tubes outdated and over and something only some crazy musicians would want.
You may find that you have a lot less actual SPL available than a good high Efficiency/Tube based system. But here is the clincher. In the 1980's I used my 100dB/W/m Coral BX-1200 and my 98dB/W/m efficient EV based speakers with fairly big (50 -100W) Transistor Amp's and not tubes! I did have some studio tube Amp's as well, but only because they needed to be sused with speakers to get the correct EQ.
One for you to try. Move your system into a > 30m Room and get a second pair of your speakers. Stack them, tweeter to tweeter. Then listen with the top pair on and off, taking care to correct the 6dB increase in SPL from using two pairs by turning down the volume.
Ciao T
trvgeek, why to pay $200 for a tweeter? I bought bunch of surplus drivers made for Dell notebooks by Foster and made nice tweeter arrays for my home cinema. 16 per side. Let's see if microphone capsules will perform better or not, especially when imperance of the array is 2K, and they are driven by OTL tube amp working in class A.
Creative. I am a big fan of arrays for PA use, but the phase issues and comb effect have been difficult for me at home. Higher impedance is a big plus, I grant you that. Just one more set of experiments to play with. I'll watch the surplus flyers. What the heck.
Remember the old inch and a half Peerless paper cone that was in everything for years and years? I heard a panel made of 32 of them once. Surprisingly good. But even at 98 cents each, they looked like real money back then. The original Jordan modules were the big array drivers then but totally out of my price range. Four or six of then at a hundred a pop in 1980! Not at my pay scale.
Remember the old inch and a half Peerless paper cone that was in everything for years and years? I heard a panel made of 32 of them once. Surprisingly good. But even at 98 cents each, they looked like real money back then. The original Jordan modules were the big array drivers then but totally out of my price range. Four or six of then at a hundred a pop in 1980! Not at my pay scale.
Adequate depends on the situation and the amount of ear damage one is willing to risk. For domestic use, average SPL of 90 dB, 100 dB peak is fairly loud and can cope with all but some audiophile recordings. Behind the desk top in my office, which is about 2,5x4x3,3, I can get this from a 3 inch two-way, with ample real bass. Which I define as the capability to hear a ground loop clearly.
Why so condecending? The real innovation is not in high end audio, but with the JBL's and Genelec's of this world.
-50dB is ok above 100 Hz, rising with decreasing frequency. This can be done at rather high SPL's with some modern small drivers.
With a 6.25 inch woofer you can reach into the mid thirties. A speaker that does that really has no problem bass.
Let's go back to your original post where you said: When I see the "generic HiFi Speaker" with it's 1" Dome mounted protruding to a flat baffle and it's 5.25-6.25 Inch "Mid-Bass" Driver I see such a profusion of fundamental problems (or "faulty by design" features) that I can only conclude that the design is not intended to offer anything approaching any kind of fidelity or resemblance to what was mastered in the studio.
It is this blanket statement I reacted to. The only point I tend to agree with is that a dome protruding from a flat baffle is not the best solution, but even then it can be good. By the way, what was mastered in the studio would have most probably be done on a pair of two-way Genelec's with subwoofers, or another setup with similar characteristics.
So how would you do the same when it comes to your preference for ribbons? Give me any evidence that ribbons are superior. It's all a matter of taste, and I don't want you to discredit a whole loudspeaker technology just because your taste is different.
vac
TVR are you trying to build stand monitors or floor standers ? Nothing wrong with domes , you can use more than one. If your budget allows use the heil , stay away from the BG's..
You can build very good performing units with the sea's drivers I had recommend 89db/1/m speakers , you just have to decide which way you want to go ..
@T,
In audio there are no absolutes , no checkered flag ...... The fact that some can listen to music being choked and squeezed out of a horn and rave says enuff...
You can build very good performing units with the sea's drivers I had recommend 89db/1/m speakers , you just have to decide which way you want to go ..
@T,
In audio there are no absolutes , no checkered flag ...... The fact that some can listen to music being choked and squeezed out of a horn and rave says enuff...
@Vac,
I myself find ribbons superior to Domes, but not a total win, win . Small ribbons lack percussive energy compared to domes , well except the Heil which is pretty unique in what it does ...
Ribbons make sense when they are at least 75 mm in length , then superior to any dome tweeter , due to the much large radiating area and pattern, dynamics are related to amp power very difficult to push into compression...
I myself find ribbons superior to Domes, but not a total win, win . Small ribbons lack percussive energy compared to domes , well except the Heil which is pretty unique in what it does ...
Ribbons make sense when they are at least 75 mm in length , then superior to any dome tweeter , due to the much large radiating area and pattern, dynamics are related to amp power very difficult to push into compression...
Honestly, I don't hear that strawman phase and comb effect issues. However, if you make array of 12" drives an home you will hear some. But 8 of 4" full-rangers and 16 of 1" tweeters sound much better than any expensive point source speakers I heard. However, I have 12" woofers as well in concrete boxes, and horn subwoofer under the floor, but all that strawmen are illusory when arrays are competently designed and built. Extremely low distortions and wide area where stereo is heard, very naturally. Tweeter for center channel is made as a stick of 64 of 12 mm telephone speakers, mounted under screen so it's center is in on level of ears when sitting on the coach.
Dude, poor efficiency drivers, like anything less than 95dB/watt, sound like soggy sponges. No pop no feeling no matter what you are driving them with. They simply do not have the capacity to control the diaphragm. You simply need efficient drivers no matter what amp you are using. You know the kind that make your dog jump up and bark. Just my taste of course.
Lack of dynamic range so if the woofer is adequate, say, at least 10", then you have to pad down the woofer. It's better to be in the position of having to pad down the tweeter, I think.
Lack of controlled directivity which is needed if I'm going to operate a system in my small room.
Do you know that many studios padded tweeters in monitors by toilet paper?
That wasn't just NS-10's?Do you know that many studios padded tweeters in monitors by toilet paper?
Hi,
An average SPL of 100dB will require 114 -120dB Peak, undistorted an uncompressed. Care to name any "small" Speaker that manages that?
Well, a 3" driver will struggle mightily at 100Hz/100dB, never mind 1120dB...
As to being able to hear groundloops, why these are at 50/60Hz fundamental, they contain so high levels and so many upper harmonics, I can hear them on the build in audio of my Lenovo Stinkpad T400!
So back to real numbers.
For a fairly moderate 85dB playback level with 18dB Headroom (though Brad will probably already be kvetching about inadequate headroom) we need 103dB @ the listening position, unless we Joachim Gerhard, who actually likes nearfield this will place us at 2 - 3m from the speaker requiring between 4-8dB more SPL at 1m (depending on room).
So "adequate SPL" in the definition of THX is 107...111dB/1m. This means:
A Speaker with 84dB/2.83V/1m needs 40V to 62V for this SPL
A Speaker with 87dB/2.83V/1m needs 28V to 44V for this SPL
A Speaker with 90dB/2.83V/1m needs 20V to 31V for this SPL
A Speaker with 93dB/2.83V/1m needs 14V to 22V for this SPL
A Speaker with 96dB/2.83V/1m needs 10V to 16V for this SPL
A Speaker with 99dB/2.83V/1m needs 7V to 11V for this SPL
A Speaker with 102dB/2.83V/1m needs 5V to 8V for this SPL
As for bass, lets return to my comment on the lowest note on the Grand Piano, a reasonable request, I should think, to reproduce it. This means 32Hz need to reproduced adequately, so lets say we accept -6dB (anechoic) at 32Hz due to room gain.
So we have some numbers we can discuss that I would suggest define "minimum fidelity" for music in small rooms.
This is 32Hz -6dB LF extension and 107dB/1m SPL capability at 100Hz and up.
Personally I might find this a trifle too high on the LF and too low on the SPL, but it should be adequate for acoustic music in small rooms and for 2-3m listening distance, if the speaker is not subject to gross distortion and compression.
I would be very interesting to be introduced to a 3" (woofer/fullrange) based speaker that can "measure up". Actually, to make the job easier, take a 6.5" one, I want you to at least stand a chance here...
Not condesceding, but looki ng for evidence to support your claims. And while I was criticising the kind of speakers of which there are always another dozend or two new ones are introduced at each HiFi show you want to talk Studio Monitors. Does this seem evasive?
Okay -50dB is 0.3% HD, so shall we agree that neither H2 or H3 shall exceed 0.3%/-50dB and higher order distortion products must be significantly lower?
So, which small speaker produces this above 100Hz at 107...111dB SPL? In fact, for this SPL I'm even willing to relax the Specification to -40dB/1%, just to stand even the slightest cjhance of achieving this.
With enough electronic EQ you can make a 2" Driver reach into the Mid 30Hz region, but at what SPL and distortion?
It is actually rather hard to find a 6.5" woofer that can manage that. But again, how about a 6.5" Woofer that can produce 107dB/1m with less 1% HD at 100Hz and reaches 101dB/1m at 32Hz with less than 10% THD at 32Hz and a straight rise of HD towards the 1% at 100Hz?
And you have so far not shown the tiniest shred of evidence that would invalidate my statement. Lets say what would be acceptable evidence, okay?
Show me a small HiFi Speaker (let's define small as 6.25"or smaller woofer, compact stand-mounter or bookshelf enclosure) which meets or exceeds ALL of the following Spec's I suggested above as minimum requirement for "adequate for high fidelity music reporduction in small rooms":
107dB/1m at less than 1% HD and less than 1dB compression above 100Hz
101dB/1m at less than 10% HD at 32Hz
32Hz -6dB SPL
better than 5dB DI above 500Hz, DI must not change quickly with frequency, a smooth increase from 0db via 5dB @ 500hz to 10dB at 16KHz is acceptable.
I have no particular preference for ribbons, but rather, as I remarked, an aversion to Domes.
I would remark that in the current market there are many magnetostats (NOT ribbons) that offer quite reasonable performance. The same can be said of compression drivers and even some cone tweeters. I'd be hard pressed to find many domes I have anything positive to say about.
Now for fun, let's take the Magnetostat used in the diyhifisupply Crescendo.
It has 100dB/2.83V Sensitivity with a -3dB point of 550Hz. Directivity is well controlled with around 60 Deg X 20 Deg CD response... The Waterfall plot shows almost instant 20dB decay above 1KHz (<<1mS hard to see, looks 0.2mS) and less than 2mS below 1Khz. Distortion is almost entierly H2 (with H3 appx. 10..20dB down) with around 1% at 104dB above 800Hz.
Looking at the Scan Speak D2604 (I happen to have data on this in the same format) I see no evidence of directivity control below 5KHz, a less flat frequency response, decay by 20dB at HF takes over 1mS and distortion at 94dB is around 1% HD (H2 dominant) reaching 2% at around 2.5KHz and exceeding 3% at 1.5KHz.
I can see nothing in measured performance to recommend the Dome tweeter over the magnetostat, except the price, where the Dome tweeter costs around halve.
Ciao T
An average SPL of 100dB will require 114 -120dB Peak, undistorted an uncompressed. Care to name any "small" Speaker that manages that?
Well, a 3" driver will struggle mightily at 100Hz/100dB, never mind 1120dB...
As to being able to hear groundloops, why these are at 50/60Hz fundamental, they contain so high levels and so many upper harmonics, I can hear them on the build in audio of my Lenovo Stinkpad T400!
So back to real numbers.
For a fairly moderate 85dB playback level with 18dB Headroom (though Brad will probably already be kvetching about inadequate headroom) we need 103dB @ the listening position, unless we Joachim Gerhard, who actually likes nearfield this will place us at 2 - 3m from the speaker requiring between 4-8dB more SPL at 1m (depending on room).
So "adequate SPL" in the definition of THX is 107...111dB/1m. This means:
A Speaker with 84dB/2.83V/1m needs 40V to 62V for this SPL
A Speaker with 87dB/2.83V/1m needs 28V to 44V for this SPL
A Speaker with 90dB/2.83V/1m needs 20V to 31V for this SPL
A Speaker with 93dB/2.83V/1m needs 14V to 22V for this SPL
A Speaker with 96dB/2.83V/1m needs 10V to 16V for this SPL
A Speaker with 99dB/2.83V/1m needs 7V to 11V for this SPL
A Speaker with 102dB/2.83V/1m needs 5V to 8V for this SPL
As for bass, lets return to my comment on the lowest note on the Grand Piano, a reasonable request, I should think, to reproduce it. This means 32Hz need to reproduced adequately, so lets say we accept -6dB (anechoic) at 32Hz due to room gain.
So we have some numbers we can discuss that I would suggest define "minimum fidelity" for music in small rooms.
This is 32Hz -6dB LF extension and 107dB/1m SPL capability at 100Hz and up.
Personally I might find this a trifle too high on the LF and too low on the SPL, but it should be adequate for acoustic music in small rooms and for 2-3m listening distance, if the speaker is not subject to gross distortion and compression.
I would be very interesting to be introduced to a 3" (woofer/fullrange) based speaker that can "measure up". Actually, to make the job easier, take a 6.5" one, I want you to at least stand a chance here...
Not condesceding, but looki ng for evidence to support your claims. And while I was criticising the kind of speakers of which there are always another dozend or two new ones are introduced at each HiFi show you want to talk Studio Monitors. Does this seem evasive?
Okay -50dB is 0.3% HD, so shall we agree that neither H2 or H3 shall exceed 0.3%/-50dB and higher order distortion products must be significantly lower?
So, which small speaker produces this above 100Hz at 107...111dB SPL? In fact, for this SPL I'm even willing to relax the Specification to -40dB/1%, just to stand even the slightest cjhance of achieving this.
With enough electronic EQ you can make a 2" Driver reach into the Mid 30Hz region, but at what SPL and distortion?
It is actually rather hard to find a 6.5" woofer that can manage that. But again, how about a 6.5" Woofer that can produce 107dB/1m with less 1% HD at 100Hz and reaches 101dB/1m at 32Hz with less than 10% THD at 32Hz and a straight rise of HD towards the 1% at 100Hz?
And you have so far not shown the tiniest shred of evidence that would invalidate my statement. Lets say what would be acceptable evidence, okay?
Show me a small HiFi Speaker (let's define small as 6.25"or smaller woofer, compact stand-mounter or bookshelf enclosure) which meets or exceeds ALL of the following Spec's I suggested above as minimum requirement for "adequate for high fidelity music reporduction in small rooms":
107dB/1m at less than 1% HD and less than 1dB compression above 100Hz
101dB/1m at less than 10% HD at 32Hz
32Hz -6dB SPL
better than 5dB DI above 500Hz, DI must not change quickly with frequency, a smooth increase from 0db via 5dB @ 500hz to 10dB at 16KHz is acceptable.
I have no particular preference for ribbons, but rather, as I remarked, an aversion to Domes.
I would remark that in the current market there are many magnetostats (NOT ribbons) that offer quite reasonable performance. The same can be said of compression drivers and even some cone tweeters. I'd be hard pressed to find many domes I have anything positive to say about.
Now for fun, let's take the Magnetostat used in the diyhifisupply Crescendo.
It has 100dB/2.83V Sensitivity with a -3dB point of 550Hz. Directivity is well controlled with around 60 Deg X 20 Deg CD response... The Waterfall plot shows almost instant 20dB decay above 1KHz (<<1mS hard to see, looks 0.2mS) and less than 2mS below 1Khz. Distortion is almost entierly H2 (with H3 appx. 10..20dB down) with around 1% at 104dB above 800Hz.
Looking at the Scan Speak D2604 (I happen to have data on this in the same format) I see no evidence of directivity control below 5KHz, a less flat frequency response, decay by 20dB at HF takes over 1mS and distortion at 94dB is around 1% HD (H2 dominant) reaching 2% at around 2.5KHz and exceeding 3% at 1.5KHz.
I can see nothing in measured performance to recommend the Dome tweeter over the magnetostat, except the price, where the Dome tweeter costs around halve.
Ciao T
Do you know that many studios padded tweeters in monitors by toilet paper?
And?
I know the NS -10. It was used as a nearfield monitor stood sideways on the meter bridge. So, what, 2 or 3 ft from the listener? That's not how most home users listen to their speakers. And the bass response wasn't good.Here is Newell's paper on it
http://www.soundonsound.com/pdfs/ns10m.pdf
It was apparently not a successful consumer product.
The SOS article is interesting, also
The Yamaha NS10 Story
(Bold and red by DVV)
Well, I think everybody in our galaxy is going to have a problem with that kind of sound pressure ...
Exactly - that's just your taste.
While we'll easily agree that the thesis that inefficient drivers do detail better, as proposed by mostly the UK loudspeaker industry during the 80ies, is simply justifing their inability to make more efficienent drivers, my experience tells me that once you get an efficiency of say 90 dB/2.83V/1m is quite sufficient for room listening, assuming you have a little more than a weedy little thingie deliverling like 8 Watts.
If there's any symbiosis in audio, then it must be the amplifier/loudspeaker couple. If they get together well, your efficiency is not so much of an issue, but if they don't, for whatever reason, then you do have a problem.
What we hear is a result of how they get along together. I have had the opportunity to hear for myself just how different a loudspeaker can sound in the same room and under same conditions with two amps; one was an outright disaster, the other was rather good.
Good dyanmics from a loudspeaker pair depends on the amp just as much as on the speakers. To call the amp cool, it needs to have a very tight grip on the speakers and a good dynamic capability combined with a high load tolerance. Surprisingly, very few amps actually do this right.
I will agree that a more efficient loudspeaker will fare better with what has been called "microdynamics", i.e. small musical clues more inert speakers would just slide over in many cases, under home condition power levels, even if that itself is a very variable condition, as room sizes vary, personally preferred SPLs vary, etc.
I have never agreed with the thesis that efficient drivers lack bottom end, i.e. that efficiency is incompatible with low end extension, although if you look at what has been commercially offered over the last 4 decades tends to support that thesis - we both know that was not for technical, but for commercial reasons.
All of which has long ago convinced me that with loudspeakers, technical properties are all fine and nice, but to assess it, you have to hear it - period. I've heard some great low efficiency speakers, some great high efficiency speakers and a lot of mediocre products in between, and all it has done was to make me understand that if you know what you want, the best way to go about it is to make it yourself. Which I did, eventually, with help from my friends.
Speaking of which, I did use a (aarrrgh!) dome tweeter, and compunded my heinious crime with having a titanium tweeter from Son Audax, but I did make sure the dome had its own small horn loading and was not flush with the front baffle.
AR used a different method in their 94 speakers - their dome IS flush mounted with the baffle, but it is also wholly surrounded by some rough cloth (for want of a better word), which is there to discourage refraction. And it works, too. My point is, refraction IS a problem, but it is a well known one and can be tackled if the manufacturer is willing to take the time and trouble. Most are not.
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Yep.
Actually, what this did is sort of counter-intuitive. Rather than dampening all frequencies, it sets up a comb filter (tissue reflects sound back, which at some frequencies combines constructively/ destructively). Somewhere on the internet, measurements on this float around and I would have liked to link to it, but couldn't find it again. You must have some pretty bad speaker to begin with when you can get an improvement this way.
vac
My dog's taste apparently runs to soggy sponges, since my speakers are nowhere near that efficient. She usually ignores the stereo when I play commercial recordings. But I was playing some of our home recordings a few days ago and she ran around frantically trying to figure out where those people were. When she heard my wife's voice at one point, she sat down and started howling in confusion.
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