Wow, finally a topic I can address intelligently!
I'm a right-brain type who has struggled to teach himself electronics through experimentation -- mostly to results that have led me to my username.
However -- I have spent an entire 20+ year career in sales and marketing and I think I can offer some insights.
I think anyone looking to go into the audio business (speakers, electronics, whatever) has to decide what they want to get out of it.
If it's only to have fun, do what you enjoy doing and maybe make a few dollars (or pounds, or Euros) then go ahead. At worst you can sell whatever you made for cost and break even. But keep in mind that the money you make, per hour, will be less than if you took a second job flipping burgers.
If you have aspirations of turning this into a full-time business (which I didn't get the sense anyone here did) then you need to develop a business plan, determine how you'll attack the market, how you'll be different than the myriad of competitors out there and most importantly, how you'll capitalize the business. There are entire shelves of books at every bookstore in the known world that cover this process, so no need to go there here.
That said, let's get back to the hobby/business concept.
There have been several posts in this thread that have mentioned pursuing a highly-targeted but under-served market. I'm sure there are several out there. Talk to your friends, talk to the people in this community and find out what they are not getting from commercial products. A great example are the various Gainclone boards that are available. People wanted to build for themselves a simple, good sounding amp that didn't cost a fortune. Who knows how many boards have been sold to date.
The one thing to keep in mind about selling to a highly knowledgeable audience like the one here is that they know what goes into the final product (component cost wise) but since they do what they do for love, they don't account for the cost of their time. Consider the various commercial Gainclone amps out there and imagine how many times someone on these boards said "what? how much for THAT? I could built that for 10% of that price!".
The niche you might also want to consider are the areas that audio community and DIYers in specific don't like/want/can't do for themselves. Metal work for electronics and cabinets for speakers are two examples that come to mind. Many are willing to pay to have someone else make this stuff so they can concentrate on the parts that they like.
That said, please take away one key point: Look around for possible market niches that are being under-served, consider if they are areas in which you would enjoy working (because you'll be spending lost of time there for very little money. Then go out and research as much as you what that segment wants.
Good luck and by the way I'm looking for a set of mini-monitor cabinets as I have the drivers and crossovers but don't have a way of doing the woodworking...
I'm a right-brain type who has struggled to teach himself electronics through experimentation -- mostly to results that have led me to my username.
However -- I have spent an entire 20+ year career in sales and marketing and I think I can offer some insights.
I think anyone looking to go into the audio business (speakers, electronics, whatever) has to decide what they want to get out of it.
If it's only to have fun, do what you enjoy doing and maybe make a few dollars (or pounds, or Euros) then go ahead. At worst you can sell whatever you made for cost and break even. But keep in mind that the money you make, per hour, will be less than if you took a second job flipping burgers.
If you have aspirations of turning this into a full-time business (which I didn't get the sense anyone here did) then you need to develop a business plan, determine how you'll attack the market, how you'll be different than the myriad of competitors out there and most importantly, how you'll capitalize the business. There are entire shelves of books at every bookstore in the known world that cover this process, so no need to go there here.
That said, let's get back to the hobby/business concept.
There have been several posts in this thread that have mentioned pursuing a highly-targeted but under-served market. I'm sure there are several out there. Talk to your friends, talk to the people in this community and find out what they are not getting from commercial products. A great example are the various Gainclone boards that are available. People wanted to build for themselves a simple, good sounding amp that didn't cost a fortune. Who knows how many boards have been sold to date.
The one thing to keep in mind about selling to a highly knowledgeable audience like the one here is that they know what goes into the final product (component cost wise) but since they do what they do for love, they don't account for the cost of their time. Consider the various commercial Gainclone amps out there and imagine how many times someone on these boards said "what? how much for THAT? I could built that for 10% of that price!".
The niche you might also want to consider are the areas that audio community and DIYers in specific don't like/want/can't do for themselves. Metal work for electronics and cabinets for speakers are two examples that come to mind. Many are willing to pay to have someone else make this stuff so they can concentrate on the parts that they like.
That said, please take away one key point: Look around for possible market niches that are being under-served, consider if they are areas in which you would enjoy working (because you'll be spending lost of time there for very little money. Then go out and research as much as you what that segment wants.
Good luck and by the way I'm looking for a set of mini-monitor cabinets as I have the drivers and crossovers but don't have a way of doing the woodworking...
I would add this to the discussion: I once heard there is something like a couple of thousand different speakers in production at any given time. This tells me that audio is extremely subjective and that the only way to sell your speaker is to build it better than the others in your price range.
Given the information available on building speakers nowadays, I seriously doubt one can build a really bad sounding speaker anymore, so the only thing left is to add value to them in other ways. The only way I see for an individual to survive in this kind of business against large cost-plus factories is to treat your speakers like works of art, something really well make, pleasing to look at, something that people would want to have in their homes and would pass on to others. So don't underestimate the secondary market for your speakers. Build something that can be resold if necessary.
Doug
Given the information available on building speakers nowadays, I seriously doubt one can build a really bad sounding speaker anymore, so the only thing left is to add value to them in other ways. The only way I see for an individual to survive in this kind of business against large cost-plus factories is to treat your speakers like works of art, something really well make, pleasing to look at, something that people would want to have in their homes and would pass on to others. So don't underestimate the secondary market for your speakers. Build something that can be resold if necessary.
Doug
Let me quote the old adage....
"Nothing happens until somebody sells something."
Unless you have sales skills, forget about it. You can buy all the other skills or people who have them. The "flat response", "sound quality", and other stereophile market niche stuff is great. You just have to sell it.
Cite: Bose
"Nothing happens until somebody sells something."
Unless you have sales skills, forget about it. You can buy all the other skills or people who have them. The "flat response", "sound quality", and other stereophile market niche stuff is great. You just have to sell it.
Cite: Bose
Gentlemen,
I agree with Mr. Chipco3434. I have heard that the secret behind BOSE's success is its sophisticated music-to-the-mass marketing network. BOSE has done extremely well in non metropolitan areas where most folks spend less than a thousand dollar for a home entertainment system that serves both music listening and movie watching.
BOSE also has done very well with people who do not want to spend time at audio salons where a pair of monitors could cost them the family vacation budget (due to the 40-50 markup of the owners of audio salons).
I was told by a friend who used to serve the US Marines Corp that Bose has sold lots of speakers to active military folks.
I think it is extremely tough to break into this industry since it is highly consolidated, the low end dominated by huge companies as BOSE and HARMAN KARDON, the high end dominated by B&W.
I think very few people have been very lucky to break into this industry successfully, being able to do what they love as making speakers to the audiophiles and being able to make a decent living out of it. Mr. Vince Bruzzese of Totem based in Quebec and the owners of Miller & Kreisel based in Culver City, Calif's success stories are quite exceptional.
I wonder if you Gs can confirm this for me. I am told that Dynaudio has stopped selling raw drivers to DYI or audio fans who want to start building speakers as a hobby, is this correct?
Are Vifa drivers as good as Dynaudio?
Thanks
I agree with Mr. Chipco3434. I have heard that the secret behind BOSE's success is its sophisticated music-to-the-mass marketing network. BOSE has done extremely well in non metropolitan areas where most folks spend less than a thousand dollar for a home entertainment system that serves both music listening and movie watching.
BOSE also has done very well with people who do not want to spend time at audio salons where a pair of monitors could cost them the family vacation budget (due to the 40-50 markup of the owners of audio salons).
I was told by a friend who used to serve the US Marines Corp that Bose has sold lots of speakers to active military folks.
I think it is extremely tough to break into this industry since it is highly consolidated, the low end dominated by huge companies as BOSE and HARMAN KARDON, the high end dominated by B&W.
I think very few people have been very lucky to break into this industry successfully, being able to do what they love as making speakers to the audiophiles and being able to make a decent living out of it. Mr. Vince Bruzzese of Totem based in Quebec and the owners of Miller & Kreisel based in Culver City, Calif's success stories are quite exceptional.
I wonder if you Gs can confirm this for me. I am told that Dynaudio has stopped selling raw drivers to DYI or audio fans who want to start building speakers as a hobby, is this correct?
Are Vifa drivers as good as Dynaudio?
Thanks
Northcreek also quit selling to the DIY market.
Let's not forget that the OP just wanted to make a little money, not start a full-time, ongoing business. Myself and probably a lot of other people on this forum feel the same way. I just told someone the other day that I would be happy to make $10 an hour just so I could buy higher quality components and materials and pay for the occasional tool and shop upkeep. It's not about making a living.
But everyone is right, you have to believe enough in your work to put it out there and sell it. Otherwise, it will end up in the garage or attic, in a yard sale, given away, or at the dump.
Doug
Let's not forget that the OP just wanted to make a little money, not start a full-time, ongoing business. Myself and probably a lot of other people on this forum feel the same way. I just told someone the other day that I would be happy to make $10 an hour just so I could buy higher quality components and materials and pay for the occasional tool and shop upkeep. It's not about making a living.
But everyone is right, you have to believe enough in your work to put it out there and sell it. Otherwise, it will end up in the garage or attic, in a yard sale, given away, or at the dump.
Doug
It is possible to do this (see Greg Osborns' site), but for every success story there is probably 1000 who didn't get off the ground. And probably 10-100 who did start out and filed to make an impression before the money ran out.
Having contacts in the market you are trying to impress is a very useful start. Impressing a local distributor (better yet, a country-wide distributor) is another plus. And starting out with a single, outstanding product that works with just about everything is another plus.
You might find that, if you want to market your ideal speaker, that you may have to compromise your standards, and initially aim at a little more mass-appeal. Then you can start introducing your original ideas to the market place once you've had acceptance.
P.S. I think the convention for Microsoft software is to call the '#' symbol a 'pound sign'. Don't blame me, but at least is works on every font...
Having contacts in the market you are trying to impress is a very useful start. Impressing a local distributor (better yet, a country-wide distributor) is another plus. And starting out with a single, outstanding product that works with just about everything is another plus.
You might find that, if you want to market your ideal speaker, that you may have to compromise your standards, and initially aim at a little more mass-appeal. Then you can start introducing your original ideas to the market place once you've had acceptance.
P.S. I think the convention for Microsoft software is to call the '#' symbol a 'pound sign'. Don't blame me, but at least is works on every font...
As far as mass appeal goes, I'm not sure how an open baffle speaker would go down, which is the type of speaker I'm leaning towards..
If I were to actually do this, I think this would be a good type of speaker to make, simply because manufacturing them would be so simple compared to a normal cabinet!
The market I'm aiming at is people with pretty big houses (bigish rooms needed for OBs) with quite a bit of disposable income.
The hard part of manufacturing would be finding drivers that look attractive from behind, and somehow hiding all the wiring from the customer to make it look professional.
I'm also leaning towards using PA drivers with carefully designed crossovers to hopefully avoid 'PA' shout. The speakers will then go impressively loud with lots of power handling and dynamics. A coaxial driver with one or two helper woofers perhaps. Effiency would be in the 97dB range allowing the customer to use "exotic" tube amps which would increase the appeal moreso.
If I were to actually do this, I think this would be a good type of speaker to make, simply because manufacturing them would be so simple compared to a normal cabinet!
The market I'm aiming at is people with pretty big houses (bigish rooms needed for OBs) with quite a bit of disposable income.
The hard part of manufacturing would be finding drivers that look attractive from behind, and somehow hiding all the wiring from the customer to make it look professional.
I'm also leaning towards using PA drivers with carefully designed crossovers to hopefully avoid 'PA' shout. The speakers will then go impressively loud with lots of power handling and dynamics. A coaxial driver with one or two helper woofers perhaps. Effiency would be in the 97dB range allowing the customer to use "exotic" tube amps which would increase the appeal moreso.
bigwill said:
The problem with this niche of the market is that it is small and fairly conservative. They tend to only go with big brand names and old 'reliable' types of speaker (even if they do cost 000's of dollar-pounds). I think that's why the new Jamos (was it? Any colour you like except wood-grained) are being made such a fuss over, as there hasn't been many big money O/B's produced by a 'well-known' manufacturer.
If you can get your foot in the door, then you can do well. But the hard part is getting that foot in there.
Good Luck!
The real problem...
Like how everybody does it, build something really good, polish the PR skills, and you will be busy with few orders per month. Not a biggie...
The real problem is when you have too many orders to handle, and you want to expand WITHOUT increasing cost. When you actually register a company and hires people, you find out that the old price is no longer profitable. Then there is insurance, warehousing, custom officers, FEDEX, sustainability (without going into advertising and retailer commisions) all needs money. Big names are expensive simply because its a bigger business to run. Now this is where real problem is!
Anyway, its always good to start first and think later. Open baffle because is the most room-friendly design, good start. Do rub in some snake oils (but please keep it at healthy level) to grab attention.
Have fun!
Like how everybody does it, build something really good, polish the PR skills, and you will be busy with few orders per month. Not a biggie...
The real problem is when you have too many orders to handle, and you want to expand WITHOUT increasing cost. When you actually register a company and hires people, you find out that the old price is no longer profitable. Then there is insurance, warehousing, custom officers, FEDEX, sustainability (without going into advertising and retailer commisions) all needs money. Big names are expensive simply because its a bigger business to run. Now this is where real problem is!
Anyway, its always good to start first and think later. Open baffle because is the most room-friendly design, good start. Do rub in some snake oils (but please keep it at healthy level) to grab attention.
Have fun!
Yeah, I was going to mention the Jamos. Not attractive in any conventional or conservative sense. They run what, $16k a pair?
My take on it would be to more as a constultant, to design custom for any given space/customer need. Then it really could be like art. Each "job" could result in a "Kensai original". Definitely business targeted at the affluent, and these sorts of customers will fall into three categories, those who will be open to interesting cabinet designs, those who either want conventional boxes or those that want invisible solutions. You would probably want to make good relationships with a local cabinet/furniture maker for building nice enclosures quickly and at reasonable cost and a contractor for building/installing in-wall and in-ceiling designs for you.
Working this way, you'll likely need to be able to provide the full package, meaning you'll need to be familiar with HT receivers, pre/pro combos, tube amps, digital amps, cabling, surround placement, yada, yada, yada . . . not just audiophile stereo sound like most of what we discuss here. However that's not all bad as you can generally package these items in with the speakers themselves, even mark up the electronics you provide (a smart cookie like one of you gents could easily find a discounted source for a high end receiver and then simply charge MSRP for it) for a bit of additional income. That way, you're providing a full service. You come in, survey, devise options for the customer to select from (involving a customer in such a process can build lots of excitement and emotional "buy in", all of which is great for word of mouth after the fact), then actually install and hand adjust things for the best sound, in room. You can even provide a bit of training for any confusing to operate gear or for any situations where settings should be changed in different circumstances to provide optimal performance (though that would only be for your most avid customers; most will likely require a more "fire and forget" setup).
Kensai
My take on it would be to more as a constultant, to design custom for any given space/customer need. Then it really could be like art. Each "job" could result in a "Kensai original". Definitely business targeted at the affluent, and these sorts of customers will fall into three categories, those who will be open to interesting cabinet designs, those who either want conventional boxes or those that want invisible solutions. You would probably want to make good relationships with a local cabinet/furniture maker for building nice enclosures quickly and at reasonable cost and a contractor for building/installing in-wall and in-ceiling designs for you.
Working this way, you'll likely need to be able to provide the full package, meaning you'll need to be familiar with HT receivers, pre/pro combos, tube amps, digital amps, cabling, surround placement, yada, yada, yada . . . not just audiophile stereo sound like most of what we discuss here. However that's not all bad as you can generally package these items in with the speakers themselves, even mark up the electronics you provide (a smart cookie like one of you gents could easily find a discounted source for a high end receiver and then simply charge MSRP for it) for a bit of additional income. That way, you're providing a full service. You come in, survey, devise options for the customer to select from (involving a customer in such a process can build lots of excitement and emotional "buy in", all of which is great for word of mouth after the fact), then actually install and hand adjust things for the best sound, in room. You can even provide a bit of training for any confusing to operate gear or for any situations where settings should be changed in different circumstances to provide optimal performance (though that would only be for your most avid customers; most will likely require a more "fire and forget" setup).
Kensai
I would not discount OB's at all. My nose tells me that a change is brewing in the speaker industry. Look at the work done by Martin King and others on transmission line-type enclosures, etc. It's only a matter of time before people realize they are tired of narrow MT and MTM speakers (even though most sound pretty good), but it's becoming like the tweeter mania of the 1970's. My efforts are going into single driver enclosures, but I also would like to see more OB designs being developed and tweaked.
Doug
Doug
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