Hi sagarverma,
I was responding to the "feel" of your reply to Hugh in post #138. I do apologize to you if I mis-interpreted your meaning.
I should mention that an absolute level playing field does not exist in Canada either in a real sense. There are rules, and there are things called "the old boys network". Same thing between countries.
BTW, Indian (among other) products are available here where ever they meet standards (and sometimes not) and they can compete. As far as I can see, the competition is on price point. The Chinese market is usually cheaper still.
The way I see things, until all people have the same standard of living and rights, there will never be a level playing field. It's not in the nature of business to allow that to happen.
-Chris
I was responding to the "feel" of your reply to Hugh in post #138. I do apologize to you if I mis-interpreted your meaning.
I should mention that an absolute level playing field does not exist in Canada either in a real sense. There are rules, and there are things called "the old boys network". Same thing between countries.
BTW, Indian (among other) products are available here where ever they meet standards (and sometimes not) and they can compete. As far as I can see, the competition is on price point. The Chinese market is usually cheaper still.
The way I see things, until all people have the same standard of living and rights, there will never be a level playing field. It's not in the nature of business to allow that to happen.
-Chris
hi Chris,
i would stand by this statement of yours at any given moment for the level playing feild is possible between equals.
me mentioning in terms of bussiness was meant to quell Hugh's belief that developing nations ask for too much concessions on flimsy grounds like 'level playing feild'.
level playing feild refers to 'no barrier' economies.free trade between nations and no protectionist measures.
man the feild is not level,u r way ahead.and in the feilds where we can compete or r competing,unjustified barriers are created.
call center bussiness,eg,its generating jobs and money in INDIA.but there was hue and cry in nations(i better not mention them) to bring about legislations to stop outsourcing.
so does it augur well for a globalised world.hi- tech western companies invade developing markets,suffocating local minnows.this leads to job cuts,factories closed etc etc.but jus a small pinch(outsourcing) feels like
a cancer that needs to be weeded out.
SAGAR
Hi Sagar,
You don't have to mention which nations. I hear about it.
There is a good point about outsourcing being made. Once gain big business is taking advantage of situations and people. Stupidly it would seem.
The problems are simple. You can not outsource call centres for things like customer service to a country with differing cultures. Misunderstandings will occur. Communication is the key and they have already put that behind the "8 ball". The other large problem is the number of people without work in the originating country. Deep social problems will occur, and are occurring. The greed blinds those in the boardroom, so they make poor decisions.
I do not have a personal stake in this - yet. By this, I mean it hasn't affected me directly. I can see the problems developing.
BTW, free trade never is. Look carefully at the Canada - USA - Mexico thing.
-Chris
You don't have to mention which nations. I hear about it.
There is a good point about outsourcing being made. Once gain big business is taking advantage of situations and people. Stupidly it would seem.
The problems are simple. You can not outsource call centres for things like customer service to a country with differing cultures. Misunderstandings will occur. Communication is the key and they have already put that behind the "8 ball". The other large problem is the number of people without work in the originating country. Deep social problems will occur, and are occurring. The greed blinds those in the boardroom, so they make poor decisions.
I do not have a personal stake in this - yet. By this, I mean it hasn't affected me directly. I can see the problems developing.
BTW, free trade never is. Look carefully at the Canada - USA - Mexico thing.
-Chris
Hi Chris,
A few months ago, we displayed our NVMOS amplifiers at a professional equipment exhibition at NEW DELHI, Pragati Maidan
..its a sort of Technology park....Visitors from across the world visited these very venues to see the technical excellence of INDIA...
A visitor, who was actually an engineer from a reputed amp company of USA asked me this straight question,....
"How could you guys develop such good a rail to rail amplifier with NVMOSFETs, with so much clarity or there's some sort of idea capturing from another western amplifier"
Then I said to him
"Sir, could you please name any Company in the world or in USA except ECLER whom is designing pro-amps with NVMOSFETS, though ECLER belongs to SPAIN and you could very well compare our engineering designs with them which is totally different" he was so convinced by my answer..that we later shared a Dinner together and I showed him our design features in a much detail....Now this guy has asked me to design a special NVMOS amp for their active monitors.......
It seems to me that some western people just think that we were far superior to asian people without even knowing the gravity of the situation....I am not supporting the copying act, its a shameful act....but Chinese are some sort of exception in this regard....
K a n w a r
A few months ago, we displayed our NVMOS amplifiers at a professional equipment exhibition at NEW DELHI, Pragati Maidan
..its a sort of Technology park....Visitors from across the world visited these very venues to see the technical excellence of INDIA...
A visitor, who was actually an engineer from a reputed amp company of USA asked me this straight question,....
"How could you guys develop such good a rail to rail amplifier with NVMOSFETs, with so much clarity or there's some sort of idea capturing from another western amplifier"
Then I said to him
"Sir, could you please name any Company in the world or in USA except ECLER whom is designing pro-amps with NVMOSFETS, though ECLER belongs to SPAIN and you could very well compare our engineering designs with them which is totally different" he was so convinced by my answer..that we later shared a Dinner together and I showed him our design features in a much detail....Now this guy has asked me to design a special NVMOS amp for their active monitors.......
It seems to me that some western people just think that we were far superior to asian people without even knowing the gravity of the situation....I am not supporting the copying act, its a shameful act....but Chinese are some sort of exception in this regard....
K a n w a r
HI Sargarverma,
This is a really difficult topic, as it's clouded by myriad issues; protection philosophies, Third v. First World attitudes, established multinationals seeking lower manufacturing costs, and Intellectual Property protection. A huge area for debate.....
Sagar, I have seen very little Third World influence at World Trade Organisation levels. Sadly, most of the influence is from the Western countries concerned to protect their IP, ensure continuing profits, hold up existing cartels, and manufacture their consumer imports in cheaper countries.
Thus, I do not in any way attack Third World countries, and I'm the first to recognise the quality education processes in many Third World countries which are producting world ranking engineers and scientists. No race has a franchise on intellect, or capacity to learn or research, and those nations who foster the development of young minds will, in the end, triumph, particularly if they can avoid the hedonist, consumerist attitudes of the wealthier nations which often lead to intellectual decay.
I think I pretty much agree with you; but the real issue is, I think, the business strategies of the multinationals.
Recently in Australia Kraft Cheese moved part of its cheese manufacture in Melbourne to China. The reason; much lower costs, notwithstanding shipping costs. 160 people are now out of work, a high proportion will now be on welfare at taxpayers' expense, and Kraft, a multinational, gets to make more profit on its cheese sales in Australia - and quite possibly, elsewhere.
I do not know the figures. But this sort of thing is happening all the time here. I came from the land originally, and am acutely aware that there are no government subsidies on our agricultural exports, just as I realise that suicide amongst Indian farmers has reached pandemic proportions.
Much of the blame lies with the zero protectionist ideological thrust of the last twenty years, wherein governments all over the world have talked airily of abolishing subsidies and tarriff imposts. Australia has been very committed to this nonsense, and we've lost our footware, textile, electronics and clothing manufacturing during this time. An import culture is ultimately weakened economically by this process. Only a 10% GST and small 2% import charge is applied to bulk electronics imports into Australia. Contrast this with farmers in the EU, where protection makes it viable in some cases NOT to grow certain crops!!
It's a very confused situation, but some aspects are clear. Any multinational will, as a matter of routine business strategy, lower its manufacturing costs to the minimum whilst marking up its products to the maximum. It will pull any string in the book to lobby home and foreign governments to permit this, and engage IP protection attorneys to prosecute its cases in international and local forums. Trade Agreements to this end may gild the lily, and look fine on the surface for the benefit of the media, but they will be slanted in favor of business. Since Australia signed a Free Trade Agreement with the US one year ago, exports to the US have dropped 5% whilst US imports have increased 5%. After all, multinationals are bigger than many governments, and they have many more resources, and they only have shareholders to answer to!! It's the greatest game in town........
Cheers,
Hugh
This is a really difficult topic, as it's clouded by myriad issues; protection philosophies, Third v. First World attitudes, established multinationals seeking lower manufacturing costs, and Intellectual Property protection. A huge area for debate.....
Sagar, I have seen very little Third World influence at World Trade Organisation levels. Sadly, most of the influence is from the Western countries concerned to protect their IP, ensure continuing profits, hold up existing cartels, and manufacture their consumer imports in cheaper countries.
Thus, I do not in any way attack Third World countries, and I'm the first to recognise the quality education processes in many Third World countries which are producting world ranking engineers and scientists. No race has a franchise on intellect, or capacity to learn or research, and those nations who foster the development of young minds will, in the end, triumph, particularly if they can avoid the hedonist, consumerist attitudes of the wealthier nations which often lead to intellectual decay.
I think I pretty much agree with you; but the real issue is, I think, the business strategies of the multinationals.
Recently in Australia Kraft Cheese moved part of its cheese manufacture in Melbourne to China. The reason; much lower costs, notwithstanding shipping costs. 160 people are now out of work, a high proportion will now be on welfare at taxpayers' expense, and Kraft, a multinational, gets to make more profit on its cheese sales in Australia - and quite possibly, elsewhere.
I do not know the figures. But this sort of thing is happening all the time here. I came from the land originally, and am acutely aware that there are no government subsidies on our agricultural exports, just as I realise that suicide amongst Indian farmers has reached pandemic proportions.
Much of the blame lies with the zero protectionist ideological thrust of the last twenty years, wherein governments all over the world have talked airily of abolishing subsidies and tarriff imposts. Australia has been very committed to this nonsense, and we've lost our footware, textile, electronics and clothing manufacturing during this time. An import culture is ultimately weakened economically by this process. Only a 10% GST and small 2% import charge is applied to bulk electronics imports into Australia. Contrast this with farmers in the EU, where protection makes it viable in some cases NOT to grow certain crops!!
It's a very confused situation, but some aspects are clear. Any multinational will, as a matter of routine business strategy, lower its manufacturing costs to the minimum whilst marking up its products to the maximum. It will pull any string in the book to lobby home and foreign governments to permit this, and engage IP protection attorneys to prosecute its cases in international and local forums. Trade Agreements to this end may gild the lily, and look fine on the surface for the benefit of the media, but they will be slanted in favor of business. Since Australia signed a Free Trade Agreement with the US one year ago, exports to the US have dropped 5% whilst US imports have increased 5%. After all, multinationals are bigger than many governments, and they have many more resources, and they only have shareholders to answer to!! It's the greatest game in town........
Cheers,
Hugh
OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on guys. This ( playing fields) is a very interesting topic and can be debated forever.
It has however NOTHING to do with AKSA Listening Tests!
OK for a while but hasn't it gone on long enough here???
By all means you should continue but on a new thread.
I'm surprised moderators haven't organised this already rather than participating.'
I don't mean to be a grouch but more precise and meaningful threads means less chaff to wade through.
Thanks & cheers
Come on guys. This ( playing fields) is a very interesting topic and can be debated forever.
It has however NOTHING to do with AKSA Listening Tests!
OK for a while but hasn't it gone on long enough here???
By all means you should continue but on a new thread.
I'm surprised moderators haven't organised this already rather than participating.'
I don't mean to be a grouch but more precise and meaningful threads means less chaff to wade through.
Thanks & cheers
Hi Peter,
I get your point, I was about to point out that a comparison with the AKSA wasn't brought up until about post #30.
Amplifierguru's last remaining post was around #81 and since then the discussion has meandered around issues that concerned Greg. This you are aware of.
Of course the thread could be locked if everyone wants. The entire thread was already moved to "Off Topic"
-Chris
I get your point, I was about to point out that a comparison with the AKSA wasn't brought up until about post #30.
Amplifierguru's last remaining post was around #81 and since then the discussion has meandered around issues that concerned Greg. This you are aware of.
Of course the thread could be locked if everyone wants. The entire thread was already moved to "Off Topic"
-Chris
Hi Chris,
misunderstandings do occur.cultural differences r there but one thing that i suppose none of you would know,the quality of staff employed at call centers.majority of them are pure nulls,totally incompetent in every feild.when they fail everywhere ,they head to this feild.
yours truly has also worked in one of these(as a summer vacations job),but couldnt work for more than a week,so much carelessness,callous attitude,no respect for work argggggggggghhhhhh.it ******.
so if the protest is on the grounds of poor service,I firmly support that.
sometimes i feel sorry for you all,u r made to ask for help from those who are incompetent and unsuitable for that job.
Hi Kanwar,
did u come at the trade fair?r u going in to Elecrama too?
Hi Hugh,
i m really surprised by such purity and clarity in the views expressed by u about developing nations.i dont expect any developed nations' citizen to have any views about third world countries.
your views out here came as a second surprise(first being accurately making out my name)
Industrial bases are shifting,competition is cut throat,its a man eat man situation,either u survive or fall prey.this leads to companies looking for each and every trick to maximise profits and survive.
so a gradual shift to low cost facillities is inevitable.save a cent here,save some there and ultimately i save a dollar.this is the main driving force behind all this.
companies cant be blamed totally.afterall they have to cut costs to survive.
the new dual core laptop processor from intel has a significant part of its R&D work done in India.why so;;,cost effective,;;equivalent brain power at lower prices.net gain is lower end product cost that will ultimately help to keep the product competative.
actually what i feel is that the zero protection thrust is proving more of a curse for local populations as much as its a boon for MNCs(Strictly MNCs).there is finite amount of money in the world,if one gets richer then the other is bound to get poorer.
misunderstandings do occur.cultural differences r there but one thing that i suppose none of you would know,the quality of staff employed at call centers.majority of them are pure nulls,totally incompetent in every feild.when they fail everywhere ,they head to this feild.
yours truly has also worked in one of these(as a summer vacations job),but couldnt work for more than a week,so much carelessness,callous attitude,no respect for work argggggggggghhhhhh.it ******.
so if the protest is on the grounds of poor service,I firmly support that.
sometimes i feel sorry for you all,u r made to ask for help from those who are incompetent and unsuitable for that job.
Hi Kanwar,
did u come at the trade fair?r u going in to Elecrama too?
Hi Hugh,
i m really surprised by such purity and clarity in the views expressed by u about developing nations.i dont expect any developed nations' citizen to have any views about third world countries.
your views out here came as a second surprise(first being accurately making out my name
)Industrial bases are shifting,competition is cut throat,its a man eat man situation,either u survive or fall prey.this leads to companies looking for each and every trick to maximise profits and survive.
so a gradual shift to low cost facillities is inevitable.save a cent here,save some there and ultimately i save a dollar.this is the main driving force behind all this.
companies cant be blamed totally.afterall they have to cut costs to survive.
the new dual core laptop processor from intel has a significant part of its R&D work done in India.why so;;,cost effective,;;equivalent brain power at lower prices.net gain is lower end product cost that will ultimately help to keep the product competative.
actually what i feel is that the zero protection thrust is proving more of a curse for local populations as much as its a boon for MNCs(Strictly MNCs).there is finite amount of money in the world,if one gets richer then the other is bound to get poorer.
sagarverma said:
The agricultural industry of India is up to date because fertilizer production in India started in 1909.
India is the 3d largest fertilizer producing nation.
Much of software development has been relocated to countries as India and Pakistan, cost effectiveness and because much of the information technology force in the west has lost the eagerness.
India is developing rapidly, so does China.
Development needs time, and patience.
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