Silver wire

[Michael Bean]

Not at all. You simply dont understand the truth.

The fact is that subtle cable distortions (or any other low level distortion) are harder to separate and identify in a low resolution / high distortion system.

If you think otherwise thats fine.
You and I, like all forum members, are equally entitled to our opinions.
Reading someones posts and opinions will help others to decide how valid that particular members opinions are.....

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

Two words: Expectation bias.

Mike

 

[arnyk]

Not at all. You simply don't understand the truth.

The fact is that subtle cable distortions (or any other low level distortion) are harder to separate and identify in a low resolution / high distortion system.

Example of a common low resolution/high distortion and noise system: The human ear.

Other examples: The listening room and recording space.

Then there are always microphones, headphones and loudspeakers.

These are all common to all recording and playback systems, and have orders of magnitude more noise and distortion, than even just commodity cables.

If you want to invoke masking by the weaker links, do try to tell the whole story.

 

[arnyk]

Not at all. You simply dont understand the truth.

The fact is that subtle cable distortions (or any other low level distortion) are harder to separate and identify in a low resolution / high distortion system.

Dismissed in another post on the grounds that the distortion in wire is orders of magnitude less than most other distortions that are present in all audio systems.

If you think otherwise thats fine.

It better be fine, since those are the findings of science.

You and I, like all forum members, are equally entitled to our opinions.

IOW, everybody makes mistakes, and believing in wire magic is just another mistake. Root cause: sighted evaluations.

Reading someones posts and opinions will help others to decide how valid that particular members opinions are.....

Sorry about that!

 

[john curl]

Derek, I agree with you about silver wire, but I don't bother to argue any more about it on this website. My own personal phono-line CTC Blowtorch preamp is made with silver wire. It does sound slightly better than an equivalent copper wired CTC Blowtorch in a direct comparison, but I can't 'prove' that to anyone here, so the heck with the rest of those those who chose to think that there could not be any difference. Silver is expensive, and often disappointing sonically due to: lack of impurity, lack of proper electrical break-in, or the wrong insulation. Silver PLATED copper is the worst of both copper or silver wire. Why is probably due to the plating method used which is most probably very impure for commercial reasons. Pure silver will tarnish and usually is mainly silver sulfide which is black. It is not really a good thing to allow silver to be exposed to the air. Keep on Truckin!

 

[marce]

I disagree, high purity (5 or 6 nines ie 99.999 or 99.9999%) solid core silver in hollow Teflon tubes make superb connectors and loudspeaker cables.
The science is as follows:
In order to generate a Ttriboelectric (static) charge the two materials need to have opposite charge. Both Silver and Teflon attract / hold a negative charge....More reading on the subject here:

Triboelectricity - Soft-Matter

In addition, silver to silver crimped joins (never soldered) are immune from the corrosion / oxidisation which rapidly degrades copper, tin and aluminium.
The reason; Silver oxide is almost as conductive as "clean" silver, other metal oxides ie copper which are poor conductors.

For best results I seal the silver crimps in bubble of hot met glue, this also helps reduce mechanical resonance effects.
This kind of ultra attention to detail will make little or no audible difference in most systems, only in very high performance systems will one be able to hear these effects.

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

Any facts or measurements

 

[billshurv]

And of course a properly done crimp is a gas tight weld if done properly, whatever the material.

 

[Overkill Audio]

"Its hard to fill a cup that is already full"

Thanks John,

Glad to hear we both have found the "silver bullet"!
Also thanks for the tip on silver plated copper wire not sounding good....I was about to buy 5Kg of that from China....Phew!

I will read up more on the silver sulfide, looks like I got it wrong re the silver oxide.

I like all the (heated!) debate on the forum but I totally agree, it gets a bit frustrating trying to explain real world effects which have yet to be quantified by measurements....Hence my " Its hard to fill a cup that is already full" quote from Avatar.

Thanks again for your note of support and all the best
Derek.

 

[SY]

Any facts or measurements

Actually, besides the ignorance of the triboelectric series (silver and PTFE are a particularly bad combination), what's also on display is an ignorance of basic silver chemistry- hot melt? Ummm, do you know what that's made of?

 

[Overkill Audio]

Chicken or Egg....?

Any facts or measurements

Assuming the majority of DIY members are not full time scientists with their own state of the art laboratory and maybe a couple of smart graduate assistants....

Should all experimentation or initial findings based on experimentation be dismissed by the marces of this world?

Taken a stage further, where would we be this attitude was extended into the real world of medicine, engineering, physics etc?

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

 

[billshurv]

Should all experimentation or initial findings based on experimentation be dismissed by the marces of this world?

Taken a stage further, where would we be this attitude was extended into the real world of medicine, engineering, physics etc?

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

Well real world engineering and physics you do repeatable experiments rather than just through out conjecture.

People who design things for military and nuclear power plants just might know a bit about what actually matters for signal integrity.

 

[Overkill Audio]

Time to get googling instead of listening....

Actually, besides the ignorance of the triboelectric series (silver and PTFE are a particularly bad combination), what's also on display is an ignorance of basic silver chemistry- hot melt? Ummm, do you know what that's made of?

As usual I disagree with you sy. I like that.

Siver and Teflon make a great combination and there is no problem with static.
This is of course only based on many years of careful testing and comparison in a huge range of systems....

So I am sure you and your buddy marce can now get busy on google and troll out some studies which prove me wrong.....Enjoy

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

 

[SY]

Should all experimentation or initial findings based on experimentation be dismissed by the marces of this world?

When they're incorrect, uncontrolled, and demonstrate a lack of knowledge of engineering and science basics, yes. Fortunately, there actually are competent and accomplished professional scientists and engineers here- including marce, who has forgotten more about signal integrity than most of us will ever know.

 

[Overkill Audio]

Good point

Two words: Expectation bias.

Mike

Hi Michael,

This is a good point, one I try to be aware of but assumptions and expectation are almost impossible to ignore completely.

As I am simply seeking to make a profit from my audio work I dont feel emotionally attached to any particular tech or method....I simply seek the lowest cost route to the highest performance I can achieve.

Thanks and all the best
Derek.

 

[billshurv]

This is of course only based on many years of careful testing and comparison in a huge range of systems....

So I am sure you and your buddy marce can now get busy on google and troll out some studies which prove me wrong.....Enjoy

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

Please document this 'careful testing'. Or do you mean 'sighted listening'?

No studies needed, just proper Engineering. You know the stuff that is done outside of the boutique audio world where people die if you fsck it up?

 

[billshurv]

https://www.trifield.com/content/tribo-electric-series/ some numbers showing Teflon is not a first choice. Great for RF though.

 

[marce]

Assuming the majority of DIY members are not full time scientists with their own state of the art laboratory and maybe a couple of smart graduate assistants....

Should all experimentation or initial findings based on experimentation be dismissed by the marces of this world?

Taken a stage further, where would we be this attitude was extended into the real world of medicine, engineering, physics etc?

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

All you are doing is playing along with an audio myth, no fact then, something I have been asking for many years and all the true believers do is sprout the same myth s and the fact that measurements have not caught up with audiophiles ears.......

They don't play around like this in the world of electronics engineering sorry, they confirm things with empirical measurements other wise we would be in trouble....

 

[brianco]

Please document this 'careful testing'. Or do you mean 'sighted listening'?

No studies needed, just proper Engineering. You know the stuff that is done outside of the boutique audio world where people die if you fsck it up?

A good number of years ago I knew a couple of RAF fighter-bomber pilots.
They both confirmed the fact that on full autopilot their planes could be flown straight at a rock face and gain altitude enough to clear the top at a distance gap which was far far closer to their certain death than could be got from the best hands on situation. Their difficulty was to trust their existence to that automation!

The 'automation' chain was designed by teams of electronic and mechanical engineers who, to attain such remarkable achievement levels, simply had to know the best possible solution to every aspect of the overall design concept.

That is what the design and production teams were trained to achieve with full success.

So it is fair to hold that the trained boffin is far more likely to initially choose far superior layouts, interfaces between well chosen components etc. Yet the best sounding audio replay equipment I have heard was designed by a non-qualified guy who choose his layouts as practical to build with components chosen by ear.

The reason for the difference between the two approaches can only be the fact that music and its hearing is such an individual and personal matter that best engineering practice can often fail to satisfy a large number of listeners. On the other hand, for every good intuitional designer there is a battalion of quacks, pretenders with no real musical interest and misguided frauds.

So I reluctantly have to admit that I am slowly coming around to sharing SY et al's position.

What is required is honesty and integrity; these qualities must first be found in one's self.

 

[marce]

Well real world engineering and physics you do repeatable experiments rather than just through out conjecture.

People who design things for military and nuclear power plants just might know a bit about what actually matters for signal integrity.

You'd hope so

 

[marce]

As usual I disagree with you sy. I like that.

Siver and Teflon make a great combination and there is no problem with static.
This is of course only based on many years of careful testing and comparison in a huge range of systems....

So I am sure you and your buddy marce can now get busy on google and troll out some studies which prove me wrong.....Enjoy

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

Instead of picking on the Black Hearts Brigade, why don't you did out some science based facts to back up your assertions... You see most of the time we can and do research something instead of just going along with the myths in the fashion of the emperors new clothes...
Now if you look at some other audio forums the dissent that Sy (a chemist I believe, so maybe has an understanding of materials), myself and others have is not allowed... They make for an interesting read, all sycophantic ramblings where facts are not allowed... occasionally I say the odd thing then get ripped to pieces by the believers... Like silver cable I have asked for many years on why is perceived as often brighter than copper and any other information as to why it supposedly sound superior to copper....
Another recent thread did list some reasons why silver plated copper is used in the mill/aerospace world and RF world.

 

[DF96]

Focus on low resistanse guys, that`s where the improvement is to find.

Why is low resistance important in an interconnect?

As long as we`re talking solid conductors off course.

What difference does that make at audio frequencies?

Please quote exactly the text which you think states your opinion.

Not my opinion, but fact. It would still be fact even if an online Wiki said otherwise. It says:

If we did a study of many materials and put them in order from those with the least desire for electrons to those with a very strong desire for electrons we would have created a Triboelectric series.

Note: there is one triboelectric series, not two. It is relative position which matters, not absolute position.

The fact is that subtle cable distortions (or any other low level distortion) are harder to separate and identify in a low resolution / high distortion system.

As you live in a democracy you are free to believe and spout nonsense if you wish. The fact is that cable sensitivity is a sign of a bad system, however much you paid for it. Two obvious issues: high source impedance can't drive cable capacitance so the cable becomes a tone control, lack of input RF filtering means the cable design details affect how much RF gets in. I'm sure others can suggest other design flaws which make systems cable-sensitive.

I like all the (heated!) debate on the forum but I totally agree, it gets a bit frustrating trying to explain real world effects which have yet to be quantified by measurements..

They are not real world effects. Two reasons we know this:
1. Circuit theory says they don't happen (an audio interconnect is a fairly trivial potential divider, so the details of the conductor really don't matter that much).
2. Ears-only tests say they don't happen.
The magnitude of the effect of swapping from copper to silver can be quantified by calculation. No need to measure.

Should all experimentation or initial findings based on experimentation be dismissed by the marces of this world?

They are not initial findings, but merely persistent myths.

Taken a stage further, where would we be this attitude was extended into the real world of medicine, engineering, physics etc?

This attitude of requiring evidence and plausible theory is precisely why science has advanced; we know because some of us have been involved in the advances ourselves. All we ask is that audio electronics be treated as what it is: a fairly simple branch of electronic engineering, which is a branch of applied physics.