This is an Audio myth, I know of no other electronics discipline where wire direction is even thought about....
Given all the operations that a wire goes through in smelting through to forming, why should wire not have any directional characteristic ?.
Dan.
The issue is not "any directional characteristic" but whether there is an audible directional characteristic.
Why should a wire have an audible directional characteristic?
Because some people are scared of what they don't know?
It doesn't have, its an audiophile myth, no proof or evidence just some bad marketing and a sill echo...... Considering the work that's gone on since Oliver Heaviside I think we may have noticed this phenomena in mainstream electronics don't you......
How does a signal travel... does it care about grain boundaries.... Nope.
MYTH
How does a signal travel... does it care about grain boundaries.... Nope.
MYTH
Cos audio is an AC signal? Or can you tell positive going distortion vs negative going?
Wire directionality is another piece of pseudo-scientific waffle cranked out in marketing, presumably to give them something to say. I imagine it got started when some [not so] bright spark noted signal leads with the shield only connected at one end, usually the source, and then, either through ignorance or deliberate misapplication, decided to trot it out for all leads, irrespective of type.
Grain boundaries... sigh. That sound you hear is Maxwell spinning in his grave.
Re silver / Teflon, that's not a happy combination as you can get some 'interesting' triboelectric effects. Not often a problem for home audio, but it does exist, and has been known to drive people spare trying to track down what is causing a variety of problems. Other than psychological effects (nice shiny wire) I suspect this may be responsible in some cases for people noting excessive 'brightness' with silver wire. I stick with solid core copper myself, or tin plated copper if stranded.
Grain boundaries... sigh. That sound you hear is Maxwell spinning in his grave.
Re silver / Teflon, that's not a happy combination as you can get some 'interesting' triboelectric effects. Not often a problem for home audio, but it does exist, and has been known to drive people spare trying to track down what is causing a variety of problems. Other than psychological effects (nice shiny wire) I suspect this may be responsible in some cases for people noting excessive 'brightness' with silver wire. I stick with solid core copper myself, or tin plated copper if stranded.
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Heaviside's work stands and that's after more than a century. It's funny then that those who 'think' they know totally disregard his work.
I spent nearly 4 years making/designing RCA i/cs, starting by using 'received wisdom' which turned out to be total bllks.
Went through all the permutations and ended up realising that Heaviside findings were the way to go re. dialectrics and the relationship with the conductor. Which in turn showed me why the crazily priced commercial offerings were made they they were - purely to make it easier and cheaper to make, even though they were screwing the buyers silly.
Remember that - the content of consciousness can only be consciousness itself, since anything outside of it does'nt exist for that consciousness, otherwise it would be part of that consciousness - in the light of which it makes some of the statements on this thread truly hilarious and completely irrational.
BTW I use the same format for chassis wiring as for i/cs - it's the only rational way to go. So whatever floats your boat for i/cs should be replicated in the chassis - the clue is continuity.
I spent nearly 4 years making/designing RCA i/cs, starting by using 'received wisdom' which turned out to be total bllks.
Went through all the permutations and ended up realising that Heaviside findings were the way to go re. dialectrics and the relationship with the conductor. Which in turn showed me why the crazily priced commercial offerings were made they they were - purely to make it easier and cheaper to make, even though they were screwing the buyers silly.
Remember that - the content of consciousness can only be consciousness itself, since anything outside of it does'nt exist for that consciousness, otherwise it would be part of that consciousness - in the light of which it makes some of the statements on this thread truly hilarious and completely irrational.
BTW I use the same format for chassis wiring as for i/cs - it's the only rational way to go. So whatever floats your boat for i/cs should be replicated in the chassis - the clue is continuity.
Harvard document on material charge polarity
I disagree, high purity (5 or 6 nines ie 99.999 or 99.9999%) solid core silver in hollow Teflon tubes make superb connectors and loudspeaker cables.
The science is as follows:
In order to generate a Ttriboelectric (static) charge the two materials need to have opposite charge. Both Silver and Teflon attract / hold a negative charge....More reading on the subject here:
Triboelectricity - Soft-Matter
In addition, silver to silver crimped joins (never soldered) are immune from the corrosion / oxidisation which rapidly degrades copper, tin and aluminium.
The reason; Silver oxide is almost as conductive as "clean" silver, other metal oxides ie copper which are poor conductors.
For best results I seal the silver crimps in bubble of hot met glue, this also helps reduce mechanical resonance effects.
This kind of ultra attention to detail will make little or no audible difference in most systems, only in very high performance systems will one be able to hear these effects.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
I disagree, high purity (5 or 6 nines ie 99.999 or 99.9999%) solid core silver in hollow Teflon tubes make superb connectors and loudspeaker cables.
The science is as follows:
In order to generate a Ttriboelectric (static) charge the two materials need to have opposite charge. Both Silver and Teflon attract / hold a negative charge....More reading on the subject here:
Triboelectricity - Soft-Matter
In addition, silver to silver crimped joins (never soldered) are immune from the corrosion / oxidisation which rapidly degrades copper, tin and aluminium.
The reason; Silver oxide is almost as conductive as "clean" silver, other metal oxides ie copper which are poor conductors.
For best results I seal the silver crimps in bubble of hot met glue, this also helps reduce mechanical resonance effects.
This kind of ultra attention to detail will make little or no audible difference in most systems, only in very high performance systems will one be able to hear these effects.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
If you read that link more carefully you will see that it is the difference in 'electronegativity' which matters, not the sign. The science says the opposite of what you think. Thanks for giving a link confirming that; it was very helpful.Overkill Audio said:
Oh dear, here we go again! The usual "this improvement only works for rich people with expensive systems with fine discrimination" which being translated actually means in reality "this snake oil will either make no difference or will result in signal deterioration especially in poorly-engineered systems which are therefore cable-sensitive but the owners of such systems will assume that any change is an improvement".
What improvement are you talking about? Other a cartridge and maybe tonearm wiring when can't you go up a wire size and get a much bigger gain than changing to silver?
Please quote the section you refer to
Please quote exactly the text which you think states your opinion.
Thanks
Derek.
Please quote exactly the text which you think states your opinion.
Thanks
Derek.
Its a simple matter of resolution and low distortion
Not at all. You simply dont understand the truth.
The fact is that subtle cable distortions (or any other low level distortion) are harder to separate and identify in a low resolution / high distortion system.
If you think otherwise thats fine.
You and I, like all forum members, are equally entitled to our opinions.
Reading someones posts and opinions will help others to decide how valid that particular members opinions are.....
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Not at all. You simply dont understand the truth.
The fact is that subtle cable distortions (or any other low level distortion) are harder to separate and identify in a low resolution / high distortion system.
If you think otherwise thats fine.
You and I, like all forum members, are equally entitled to our opinions.
Reading someones posts and opinions will help others to decide how valid that particular members opinions are.....
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Oh, dear … do I have to trot forth the psychological factors that are at play, yet again? It all seems to come down to this: people are motivated to find balance in systems. Doesn't matter what system it is, but it is one of the driving factors directing 'choice' and 'selection' when people get involved with specifying a bunch of stuff that is supposed to work together as “a system”.
We do it with cars: one hardly expects to listen to a Realistic Brand (Radio Shack) radio when tootling around in a Maserati. For that matter, we also don't expect vinyl seats in it, nor plastic interior trim. Its a system: it is expensive, and it darn well ought to LOOK expensive. In every way popularly meaningful.
We do it with kitchen appliances: maybe you're a, or have a partner who's a culinary enthusiast. Gonna get a Sunbeam blender with a plastic bowl from a yard sale? Hey… you could spiff it up and ignore the phenolic smell when you try to grind up anything more challenging than raw eggs… But probably not. Probably you'll get a nice shiny new model, to go along with the Kitchenaid mixer, the Cuisinart chopper, the Wolf range, and the Bosch dishwasher. Your countertops likely won't be 1960s mica-filled linoleum (or whatever it was); your refrigerator won't be a 1950s Westinghouse requiring defrosting.
We optimize systems “in balance” at the component level.
Hence, arranging (and convincing ones' self) to purchase $5,000 … $7,500 … $10,000 worth of the High End Audio equipment that one has been reading about since youth, it would hardly make "sense" (objectively) to purchase $2.59 a meter Radio Shack cables - even if they're supposedly gold plated. Gold plated and super-single-crystal-cryogenically-treated unobtainium wire.
Its the $2.59 that gets in the way.
Since you're on the verge of chucking forth a few months take-home pay, …
… are you going to go cheap on the very thing that the signal passes through?
Are you?
Nah… if they're “only 5% more” for the 'tier' that is approximately the same as all the equipment that you've finally come to grips as being balanced, you're going to go with those. You're going to listen carefully to the comparisons; you'll make up your mind based on how tired you are, how much you want to get out of the store, how big the tt*tts are on the salesguy's assistant, and so on.
And because we all seriously 'need' “the words” too, it will help if all nature of dragon blood, unicorn horn, petrified gnarlwood and glacial meltwater treatment somehow makes it into the description. Which you will undoubtedly memorize, and then with no small amount of pride repeat at whatever opportunities afford themselves in friendly conversation.
That's the whole deal with “directional wire”. Its the same with cryogenically treated cables. Its the same with much of the marketing dung which is shoveled forth as sweet hay. Because to the non-scientifically but still word-sophisticated buyer, it must mean something, because they wouldn't sell snake oil, I'm sure of it.
Psychology 101.
GoatGuy
We do it with cars: one hardly expects to listen to a Realistic Brand (Radio Shack) radio when tootling around in a Maserati. For that matter, we also don't expect vinyl seats in it, nor plastic interior trim. Its a system: it is expensive, and it darn well ought to LOOK expensive. In every way popularly meaningful.
We do it with kitchen appliances: maybe you're a, or have a partner who's a culinary enthusiast. Gonna get a Sunbeam blender with a plastic bowl from a yard sale? Hey… you could spiff it up and ignore the phenolic smell when you try to grind up anything more challenging than raw eggs… But probably not. Probably you'll get a nice shiny new model, to go along with the Kitchenaid mixer, the Cuisinart chopper, the Wolf range, and the Bosch dishwasher. Your countertops likely won't be 1960s mica-filled linoleum (or whatever it was); your refrigerator won't be a 1950s Westinghouse requiring defrosting.
We optimize systems “in balance” at the component level.
Hence, arranging (and convincing ones' self) to purchase $5,000 … $7,500 … $10,000 worth of the High End Audio equipment that one has been reading about since youth, it would hardly make "sense" (objectively) to purchase $2.59 a meter Radio Shack cables - even if they're supposedly gold plated. Gold plated and super-single-crystal-cryogenically-treated unobtainium wire.
Its the $2.59 that gets in the way.
Since you're on the verge of chucking forth a few months take-home pay, …
… are you going to go cheap on the very thing that the signal passes through?
Are you?
Nah… if they're “only 5% more” for the 'tier' that is approximately the same as all the equipment that you've finally come to grips as being balanced, you're going to go with those. You're going to listen carefully to the comparisons; you'll make up your mind based on how tired you are, how much you want to get out of the store, how big the tt*tts are on the salesguy's assistant, and so on.
And because we all seriously 'need' “the words” too, it will help if all nature of dragon blood, unicorn horn, petrified gnarlwood and glacial meltwater treatment somehow makes it into the description. Which you will undoubtedly memorize, and then with no small amount of pride repeat at whatever opportunities afford themselves in friendly conversation.
That's the whole deal with “directional wire”. Its the same with cryogenically treated cables. Its the same with much of the marketing dung which is shoveled forth as sweet hay. Because to the non-scientifically but still word-sophisticated buyer, it must mean something, because they wouldn't sell snake oil, I'm sure of it.
Psychology 101.
GoatGuy
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Guilty. Saving for blendtec and the plastic kenwood does nearly burn out on hummus and grinding the batter for idly.
Hoping to inherit a 40 year old kenwood chef some day
Well at the UK ratshack equivalent they do Van Damme starquad for only 40p a meter more than twin. sweeet; real measurable and pointless extra protection against DM pickup for pennies
Can you tell I am not the target market for a lot of audiophile stuff ! But happy to mess with my own head when it suits me
Bill! If you're not of Indian origin, mentioning idli in idle conversation puts you into a class of super-culinary vagabonds to which I can only hope someday to attain. Idli - as soon as I read the word, my salivary glands came to life. Idli in a nice Madrasi sambar; preferably fermented (the idli) for 2 days like a yoghurt in a warm dark cupboard. And the sambar has to be redolent of popped fenugreek (methi) and I-don't-know-what-it-is-in-English (kalonji, imli and chakra poohl). Mmmmmmmmmmm....
Do try to find a glass-mixing-bowl Kenwood blender, dude. They can be found at yard sales if you keep an eye out. I understand completely regarding the hummus being a blender killer. Myself, I just make enough of it now (from the seeds, not the canned stuff!) so that I can use the Cuisinart for a few quarts, and then freeze the unneeded portions in those cute little tough-plastic round chinese-take-out containers that have become popular. Endlessly reusable. Tough. Clean up well in the dishwasher.
I tip my hat at you, Idli-man.
Now I must trundle off to my favorite Madras curry shack.
Its an evil curse: love of spiced things.
GoatGuy
Do try to find a glass-mixing-bowl Kenwood blender, dude. They can be found at yard sales if you keep an eye out. I understand completely regarding the hummus being a blender killer. Myself, I just make enough of it now (from the seeds, not the canned stuff!) so that I can use the Cuisinart for a few quarts, and then freeze the unneeded portions in those cute little tough-plastic round chinese-take-out containers that have become popular. Endlessly reusable. Tough. Clean up well in the dishwasher.
I tip my hat at you, Idli-man.
Now I must trundle off to my favorite Madras curry shack.
Its an evil curse: love of spiced things.
GoatGuy
I'm not but wife is, so I've been introduced. Getting good at making Dosa as well now. SY has no such excuse but also loves them.
I'll have a look around see what I can find. kenwood, like many is a shadow of its former self, when they made things to last a lifetime.
It's cool when the wife encourages experimentation with growing chillis!
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