I know for a fact this is not true. My OTL/OCL designs are all exceedingly high performance, easily outperforming any transformer throughout the entire audio frequency range.
I've never experienced euphonics from an amplifier that performs well at what it does.
High performance amps, even tube ones, sound more realistic with higher performance, but not more euphonic. I've also learned that the 2nd harmonic does not matter much. I recently made a gain stage that had -25db 2nd harmonic and was the only harmonic below -100db. It sounded almost entirely the same as an equivalent circuit with 2nd harmonic below -100db, just a tad bit harsher maybe (comparatively speaking, technically it is the smoothest sounding circuit I've ever heard). The change in harmonics was simply due to a parts roll, the circuit itself is extremely high performance and extremely realistic sounding.
Euphony and realism are often on opposite ends of the spectrum (not always the case).
I design my amps with the express purpose of the least amount of technical flaws and the highest performance possible, I always achieve high levels of realism. Euphony, not so much. Euphony is more about adding some mythical form of distortion, but in my experience it has little or nothing to do with the harmonic structure of the amplifier.
In my experience having at least a few ohms of output impedance is better than having zero. I haven't tested this extensively yet because most of the time there's somewhere around 10+ ohms of impedance between the amp and my drivers. Damping factor plays a role but it's not the source of euphonics.
Well looking at the schematic, it employs every entry level design technique I can think of. Caps everywhere, resistor loads, ect.
Interesting. I have a couple of Nutubes lying around for a rainy day. Might checkem out.
Yeah well if SS power buffered gain stages count as SET then my overengineered 4P1L hybrid is at least infinite times better than the PMillet Nutube amp
I've never built anything with a tube in it that didn't have an SE harmonic structure. It's pretty hard not to get in SE circuits. I don't think harmonic graphs are really very useful for determining how something actually sounds in the end though.
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I'm a bit perplexed by your definitions of euphony and realism. I don't see it at all that way. The 2 factors I look for, as a musician used to live music, are timbre and clarity. A well reproduced singer will have a startlingly accurate timbre and in-your-face clarity. No warmness, thickness, or any veiled quality at all. Just very clean, clear and natural presence. Same for all the other acoustic instruments. It's taken me many, many years to get this out of DHTs but I'm in the ballpark using filament bias with very elaborate filament supplies (chokes, regs etc). For me there is no 'euphony' - it's a non-word. Live acoustic music sounds good and natural and so should reproduced music.
Set 'sound' is a combination of speakers and amplifiers. Only the amplifier with unmatched speakers will sound worse than a kenwood with class D.
Yes, that is what I consider realism. If your brain is confused because it sounds like the music is real even though it cannot see it, that is realism.
Euphony is when you get an actual high in your brain and you have a stupid look at your face and you can't stop listening. It's addictive like a high as well. I actually went though something resembling withdrawal symptoms after I dismantled the amp that gave me this sound. Euphony is born of a mysterious "something" in the sound that seems impossible to describe or pinpoint. A real black art.
The only thing for sure is that it is based in some form of distortion, which is why euphonics are usually found in systems that are less than hi-fi in every aspect.
In my opinion achieving euphony and realism together is the ultimate achievement in audio reproduction.
I've succeeded at this once, but I dismantled it in search of further R&D in hopes to improve upon it.
I'm beginning to think truly euphonic amps are rarer than I thought. I see many people mixing up the terms euphony with realism a lot.
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I still don't get it. Natural, realistic reproduction should give you a permanent high. It should be satisfying all the time. I see no use for the word "euphony", particularly since it's often used in a pejorative way by measurement fanatics who contrast it with .00000001% measured distortion, whatever the actual sound such a system produces. .
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There may not be an intellectual answer to your question, at least not a simple and reliable answer. Your post gives the impression that your approach to amplifier designs is a good strong engineering one, without much focus on listening and perhaps fairly described as objective. Now you are asking about the other side of this, the 'magic', a subjective evaluation. If you really want to know for yourself then I believe you will have to spend time listening and hear for yourself - without the direct experience you won't really know. It may take some experimentation to find out how different things affect your subjective experience of the sound.
As others have said, I suspect that the answer is that the sound of the SET comes from the total system, meaning that no single element is by itself the answer to your question. You will find reports from others that they have achieved their 'magic' sound by ensuring appropriate design of the power supply, by appropriate choice of driver stage, by choice of type of heating for the output tube, by the match to a speaker etc.
Defining what people mean by 'magic sound' will be even more difficult
Sometimes the worst looking soup tastes the best. Design techniques are strictly dependent on the parts used, and the guy adapted the Nutube in a very efficient way, IMHO. If I raised your interest, do check it out. He gives the boards basically for free. To my shock, I was able to fully replicate his measurement results, with a smoothly tapering (on a hyperbolic) harmonic pattern. Now his amp is not without problems, mind you (The Nutube is extremely microphonic, the amp requires an attenuator with high sensitivity headphones), but it will give that SET sound.
You don't quite understand I think. Euphonic amps give you a real high, like a freakin orgasm in your brain kind of high. If you got a brain orgasm from going to live concerts I think I'd be a bit concerned for you
The euphony from these amps is not natural, but oh so good. There's a stark contrast between euphony and realism once you've heard the best of both. For starters euphony does not rely on the presence of realism at all. I often hear experienced audiophiles say that the best amp is not one that sounds the best, but the one that makes you listen the longest. I tend to agree.Yeah that's total BS. The one sure thing I know about euphonics is that they are based in distortion and imperfections.
Sure realistic amps can be a surreal experience that continuously fascinates. But it's apples and oranges compared to the mental high that euphony gives.
I'd say it's more like both. It's impossible to design an amp based on intangible goals, so instead I design with technical perfection in mind with the intent of injecting distortion afterword. That way I don't have uncontrolled distortion mechanisms in the design and I have the best odds at creating an amp that is both ultra realistic and ultra euphonic. I haven't yet fully gotten around to R&D on the distortion part of it, but adding distortion is far easier than making a technically perfect amp.
Damn I was kind of hoping there would be some shared experiences.As others have said, I suspect that the answer is that the sound of the SET comes from the total system, meaning that no single element is by itself the answer to your question. You will find reports from others that they have achieved their 'magic' sound by ensuring appropriate design of the power supply, by appropriate choice of driver stage, by choice of type of heating for the output tube, by the match to a speaker etc.
Defining what people mean by 'magic sound' will be even more difficult
I've built all kinds of amps and the only ones that had the "magic" were ones of the reasonably high distortion variety, at least from a measurement perspective. One of them sounded crazy realistic, the others were almost not even hi-fi but still gave me that gaga face.
The one that was both realistic and euphonic had much to improve on from an engineering perspective so I took it apart. I've got numerous tests to run before I get around to rebuilding it or a better version of it.
There's definitely a method of mixing these two sound aspects I just need to find the source...
I certainly wouldn't doubt it.
Efficient? Yeah. But techniques relying on parts used? Nah. The Nutube is effectively a DHT. Just think about any good DHT design, then look back at his amp design. He's practically disrespecting the Nutube as a DHT, his design is honestly just lazy, no disrespect towards him but he took the easy way out on every aspect of the design.
Looks to me like he's using parallel tubes to get his results. I don't really have an interest in such an inefficient method. There's a million and one ways to hybridize a tube, no need for such an old technique.
Don't use regulated B+ with sand, use tubes to regulate B+ and to filter mains chokes minimum CLC for PSU, use tube rectifiers or better schotky Sic Cree diodes for B+ last and no minus important use heaters DC regulated and filament bias from Rod Coleman (not afiliated only a happy customer).
I experienced the same problem with sterile or surgical sound with #26 preamp and solved avoiding sand for B+ and using VR150 tube voltage regulator, also the OPT Lundahl LL1660 configured as 4:4.5 with primary inductance of 150H because my power amps have an input impedance of 100K and don't need to reduce the ouptu impedance of #26 preamp.
Believe me day and night.
I experienced the same problem with sterile or surgical sound with #26 preamp and solved avoiding sand for B+ and using VR150 tube voltage regulator, also the OPT Lundahl LL1660 configured as 4:4.5 with primary inductance of 150H because my power amps have an input impedance of 100K and don't need to reduce the ouptu impedance of #26 preamp.
Believe me day and night.
Hmmm, I've suspected this.
Based on some personal experiences and accounts of others there seems to be a possible correlation between a power supply that has ripple that is harmonious with the signal and musicality. I've also noticed a mysterious phenomena where high value super low ESR film caps in non regulated supplies produce large amounts of high quality bass, far more than the reduction in ESR would suggest, even if the capacitor value is much lower than the lytic cap it replaced. I haven't officially tested power supply differences but it has been on my to do list.
For now I'm just using super regs, and soon my own reg I designed that has orders of magnitude lower output impedance than the jung super reg. Worst case scenaro I can always use them as a preregulator for a more "musical" power supply design.
Oh no, don't misunderstand. When I talk about "realistic" sound that is not also euphonic I don't mean that it has the dreaded sterile, lifeless "solid state" sound. On the contrary it is very lively. It just doesn't have the mysterious magic vodoo
Whatever that may be.Luckily I haven't designed anything that sounds sterile. Might have something to do with the fact that I only use open loop designs, I don't know. But sterile sound is an absolute no go for me.
My DAC used to sound sterile until I fried the output stage in an accident and then replaced it with my own design. Turned it into the smoothest silkiest clearest sounding thing I've ever heard. I thought dacs were supposed to sound boring until then. But I haven't heard an r2r dac, I heard they are supposed to be musical.
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I experienced the same with regulated or non regulated B+ using only MKP as filter mains always loss a lot of bass and sound become too fragile without body or meat very transparent but not my cup of tea.
About DAC now I'm very happy with noDAC The Best DAC is no DAC, before used NOS of any kind, pcm1704 r2r and nothing compares the SQ of noDAC playing DSD files.
About DAC now I'm very happy with noDAC The Best DAC is no DAC, before used NOS of any kind, pcm1704 r2r and nothing compares the SQ of noDAC playing DSD files.
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No I meant using high value polyprop caps as the output bypass cap in voltage stabilized but non actively regulated supplies significantly increases the amount of bass and the quality of bass compared to other cap types in my experience.
I don't think you want to use MKP caps as a mains filter, that's going to give you a sharp conduction angle forming a sawtooth-esk ripple. Not the kind of harmonics you want feeding your amp.
I don't think you want to use MKP caps as a mains filter, that's going to give you a sharp conduction angle forming a sawtooth-esk ripple. Not the kind of harmonics you want feeding your amp.
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Yeah I've been poking my head in that forum every once in a while. I really like the idea of directly converting the DSD into a usable signal. If only DSD was the recording standard, oh the things we could do.
I can't remember off the top of my head but there was some inherent technical flaws in the nodac concept that turned me off to it in the end. Maybe there are solutions but I'm too busy with other stuff to spend time on it. I've just received a es9038 buffalo dac I'm going to make portable and use the dac stage I designed with it. Hopefully the upgrade from es9018 chip is worth the hype.
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High value in uF or in V or both?
Capacitance value always depends input impedance of next source. More Volts equal to more thick electrodes: always sounds better to my ears.
I used Sabre ESS9018 TP BIII DAC and was sold. I use Daphile (free player) that convert all on the fly to DSD Daphile – Digital Music Convenience for Audiophiles
Film caps are always high volts. I meant in uF, although I did not notice a decrease in sound quality with lower values. It's mysterious because the drop in capacitance should mean less bass, and the drop in ESR from lytic should not provide the amount of bass that it does.
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