I proposed to make a simulation of the directivity behavior of the loudspeaker you planned (it was an mtm +sub at the time).
About dsp in your Crown expect the same thing as other dsp: filter, delay, eq. Nothing really different from a minidsp.
While at it, if you have crown and one minidsp you have possibility to tri amp active filtering.
When i made the proposition you just decided to go class A for your amp after being into a luxury audio shop and so you was trying to find where to find money to do that...
If it was my project i woulf keep minidsp and crown for filtering.
Why? Because it ll be easier for filtering and will give you flexibility for the xover choice without breaking the bank.
For the amp i would forget class A for the moment and try to find a good second hand amplifier. Not an audiophile one or a low cost pro ( as the Behringer you talked about at the time).
You ve got a Crown/Amcron, i would staay with that Brand. During 80's and 90's they had a studio line (which doesn t have fan) named DC-XXX. I own three of them ( a Dc 150, a Dc 75 and a Dc 20) in a tri amp config and they are pretty good.
To the point one of my friend wanted to exchange his tube amp to one of them...
And you still see them used to drive nearfield passive monitor in studio today.
If latter you want to try classA home-heater nothing will stop you to try but meanwhile you ll have a pristine flexible amplification.
Back to the Crown xls... do you own it or not? If you own it read the manual! If you don t own it... read the manual too! You ll know what to expect.
Minidsp or Crown processor or passive filter you ll have to enter parameter manually and need a mic and Rew to analyze and measure what you do..
Nothing new... it is all in the pm i sent you.
About dsp in your Crown expect the same thing as other dsp: filter, delay, eq. Nothing really different from a minidsp.
While at it, if you have crown and one minidsp you have possibility to tri amp active filtering.
When i made the proposition you just decided to go class A for your amp after being into a luxury audio shop and so you was trying to find where to find money to do that...
If it was my project i woulf keep minidsp and crown for filtering.
Why? Because it ll be easier for filtering and will give you flexibility for the xover choice without breaking the bank.
For the amp i would forget class A for the moment and try to find a good second hand amplifier. Not an audiophile one or a low cost pro ( as the Behringer you talked about at the time).
You ve got a Crown/Amcron, i would staay with that Brand. During 80's and 90's they had a studio line (which doesn t have fan) named DC-XXX. I own three of them ( a Dc 150, a Dc 75 and a Dc 20) in a tri amp config and they are pretty good.
To the point one of my friend wanted to exchange his tube amp to one of them...
And you still see them used to drive nearfield passive monitor in studio today.
If latter you want to try classA home-heater nothing will stop you to try but meanwhile you ll have a pristine flexible amplification.
Back to the Crown xls... do you own it or not? If you own it read the manual! If you don t own it... read the manual too! You ll know what to expect.
Minidsp or Crown processor or passive filter you ll have to enter parameter manually and need a mic and Rew to analyze and measure what you do..
Nothing new... it is all in the pm i sent you.
This is grossly inaccurate for the tweeters. Tweeter power handling is something that is almost impossible to predict. And things don't get much better with the woofers/midrange drivers either.
As we're discussing tweeters that are going to be crossed over low the figure that you should be looking at is its xmax. This is by far the most limiting factor, obviously in combination with its surface area. A large portion of tweeters these days leave the factory with ~0.2mm of one way, which is rather lacklustre. Then there are a few that have quite a bit more.
If you want a tweeter that will crossover low without a waveguide then go with the SB26ADC. This has a large amount of xmax and also measures ridiculously well. In fact, for low crossover points, it measures better than almost anything from Scanspeak, SEAS, or even SB themselves. Why they haven't used this motor for something else I don't know. This is their best measuring tweeter. Ironically the two best tweeters, for low xover points, from Scanspeak are the good old D2905/97 and the D2905/99. The BlieSMa tweeters would also work very well.
You can see measurements here...
Measurements and compare | HiFiCompass
I really do not see why you want to be changing away from the W18EX, if used properly, this is one of the best midrange drivers in the world. You've already got it and it's amazing, why change? The tweeter you bought is a disaster to use with it, but it isn't a terrible tweeter.
Buy a suitable tweeter. Use the W18EX and have excellent music. In my opinion this will give you the best results with regards to sound quality too and if you really want to get the best, use a wave guide on that tweeter.
Keep the ribbon tweeters. At a later date use them with something like an SB MW13P for a second pair of small speakers.
From my point of view you don't really seem to be choosing drivers with any kind of direction except for the fact that they are expensive and then bouncing all over the place with your choices.
The only thing that the W18NX has over the W18EX is that it can be crossed over high and that's it (okay so its a bit more sensitive), everything else about it is worse. So the W18NX can be crossed over higher, but only very slightly because it starts to beam below 2kHz. Pretty much any tweeter that you choose to work with the W18NX is going to be robust enough to work with the W18EX too (ie have the ability to crossover at 1500Hz), so why change to the NX? Just go with the EX and enjoy the midrange without any of the resonances associated with most soft cones.
You do seem focused on the maximum SPL that you're going to be able to get out of these so lets throw another option in that makes more sense than any of your current ideas.
If you want the capability to play loud without issues then go with a midrange driver with good sensitivity. Get an 18Sound 6ND430 in the 8 ohm version, pair it with a sensitive tweeter and put the tweeter in a 6" waveguide. Crossover low (such as 1500Hz before the waveguide starts to shape the tweeters directivity) or crossover for a directivity match (cross at 2.5kHz).
Standard 2x4 is fine for use as subwoofer. Not fullrange. Also you Will not get the best SN ratio controlling volume from the Bluesound.
with those drivers you have in mind, the crossover you have is a bottleneck.
I totally understand you're thinking I want to be able to play loud because I'm talking about max SPL literally all the time and I'm a teenager but this is not the case, at all, I'm in a tiny room anyway (again, please don't start about the room, they will only spend a fraction of their lifetime in this room). I just want all drivers to play in harmony and not just hear the tweeter the one time I do play it loud.
If you think the drivers won't live up to their capabilities with the 2x4 I'll change my crossover setup. I know a good passive crossover doesn't come cheap either but a 2x4 HD is just ridiculously expensive. I think what I will do then is take a Crown XLS 1002 for the subs so at least I have the DSP there because I think DSP is an absolute must for using a sub, let alone in my room. I'll buy a measuring mic and software, probably the MiniDSP UMIK-1 so I can use it easily when the day comes when I will have a MiniDSP because it will definitely come some day but not now. And I'll just commit like a mother f-er to make a passive crossover.
I have to and will return the Fountek's though. Returning them is all that makes this new setup affordable and I don't have the income yet to just leave a €220,- couple of drivers in a box and just build something with them whenever I feel like it.
About the tweeter again. I have found something potentially really good. It won't cross low, at all but it might seriously be worth considering and you may have not heard of them before. The Hiquphon WO3. It's literally the golden dome. It's response is smooth as butter from 2-3 to 19 kHz kHz, peak - peak max recommended (so that's Xmax right?) of 1,8 mm. It's average sensitivity, moving mass is 0,175 grams and I couldn't find any distortion graphs because it's so under the radar but it's THD + N at 1 W sinus 2,5-22 kHz is <0,15% (tell me if that's good or bad but I suspect it's pretty good) and it probably sounds amazing in the real world as well because, and I know it has A LOT to do with the crossover etc. by now but it is the tweeters used by Kroma Audio, one of the best brands in the world. I know it's not all about drivers here, definitely not in case of Kroma but I'm just assuming they will be astonishing if they're used by Kroma. Chattelin says they are one of, if not the best they've ever had in their store and they've had anything in their store, from KEF Muon to Magico M6. And what's the price of this "golden dome"? I don't know exactly because the only site which gave direct prices was in dollars and I don't know if that includes tax but they are $300 on Ellisaudio... per matched pair. And that's matched by hand within 0,5 dB.
It won't cross low, it has a recommended of 2,5 kHz but if you guys can disarm my max-SPL-equalty-obsession (which I know you can and will) so I can use a smaller 5" mid this could just be a top performer.
If you think the drivers won't live up to their capabilities with the 2x4 I'll change my crossover setup. I know a good passive crossover doesn't come cheap either but a 2x4 HD is just ridiculously expensive. I think what I will do then is take a Crown XLS 1002 for the subs so at least I have the DSP there because I think DSP is an absolute must for using a sub, let alone in my room. I'll buy a measuring mic and software, probably the MiniDSP UMIK-1 so I can use it easily when the day comes when I will have a MiniDSP because it will definitely come some day but not now. And I'll just commit like a mother f-er to make a passive crossover.
I have to and will return the Fountek's though. Returning them is all that makes this new setup affordable and I don't have the income yet to just leave a €220,- couple of drivers in a box and just build something with them whenever I feel like it.
About the tweeter again. I have found something potentially really good. It won't cross low, at all but it might seriously be worth considering and you may have not heard of them before. The Hiquphon WO3. It's literally the golden dome. It's response is smooth as butter from 2-3 to 19 kHz kHz, peak - peak max recommended (so that's Xmax right?) of 1,8 mm. It's average sensitivity, moving mass is 0,175 grams and I couldn't find any distortion graphs because it's so under the radar but it's THD + N at 1 W sinus 2,5-22 kHz is <0,15% (tell me if that's good or bad but I suspect it's pretty good) and it probably sounds amazing in the real world as well because, and I know it has A LOT to do with the crossover etc. by now but it is the tweeters used by Kroma Audio, one of the best brands in the world. I know it's not all about drivers here, definitely not in case of Kroma but I'm just assuming they will be astonishing if they're used by Kroma. Chattelin says they are one of, if not the best they've ever had in their store and they've had anything in their store, from KEF Muon to Magico M6. And what's the price of this "golden dome"? I don't know exactly because the only site which gave direct prices was in dollars and I don't know if that includes tax but they are $300 on Ellisaudio... per matched pair. And that's matched by hand within 0,5 dB.
It won't cross low, it has a recommended of 2,5 kHz but if you guys can disarm my max-SPL-equalty-obsession (which I know you can and will) so I can use a smaller 5" mid this could just be a top performer.
Threewayaddict,
Stop running in circle and make choice. Nothing stop you to upgrade your system along the way.
Don t take thing too seriously too. You have choosen a difficult path for your first build (3way) but this should not stop you.
You are in the lucky position to have access to a lot of knowledge, experience and willingness to help you here.
I m jealous! You start your trip early and in 10 years if you keep on this track you'll be a wealth of knowledge and experience.
Don t let the usual things fool you ( money, girls, ego).
Stop running in circle and make choice. Nothing stop you to upgrade your system along the way.
Don t take thing too seriously too. You have choosen a difficult path for your first build (3way) but this should not stop you.
You are in the lucky position to have access to a lot of knowledge, experience and willingness to help you here.
I m jealous! You start your trip early and in 10 years if you keep on this track you'll be a wealth of knowledge and experience.
Don t let the usual things fool you ( money, girls, ego).
I proposed to make a simulation of the directivity behavior of the loudspeaker you planned (it was an mtm +sub at the time).
About dsp in your Crown expect the same thing as other dsp: filter, delay, eq. Nothing really different from a minidsp.
While at it, if you have crown and one minidsp you have possibility to tri amp active filtering.
When i made the proposition you just decided to go class A for your amp after being into a luxury audio shop and so you was trying to find where to find money to do that...
If it was my project i woulf keep minidsp and crown for filtering.
Why? Because it ll be easier for filtering and will give you flexibility for the xover choice without breaking the bank.
For the amp i would forget class A for the moment and try to find a good second hand amplifier. Not an audiophile one or a low cost pro ( as the Behringer you talked about at the time).
You ve got a Crown/Amcron, i would staay with that Brand. During 80's and 90's they had a studio line (which doesn t have fan) named DC-XXX. I own three of them ( a Dc 150, a Dc 75 and a Dc 20) in a tri amp config and they are pretty good.
To the point one of my friend wanted to exchange his tube amp to one of them...
And you still see them used to drive nearfield passive monitor in studio today.
If latter you want to try classA home-heater nothing will stop you to try but meanwhile you ll have a pristine flexible amplification.
Back to the Crown xls... do you own it or not? If you own it read the manual! If you don t own it... read the manual too! You ll know what to expect.
Minidsp or Crown processor or passive filter you ll have to enter parameter manually and need a mic and Rew to analyze and measure what you do..
Nothing new... it is all in the pm i sent you.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't notice that in the other thread. If you seriously want to do that that would be amazing and probably helpful with crossover design before I can start real-world but before you do. Wait until I or better said we are 100% sure of the driver selection.
I do not own a XLS yet.
Threewayaddict,
Stop running in circle and make choice. Nothing stop you to upgrade your system along the way.
Don t take thing too seriously too. You have choosen a difficult path for your first build (3way) but this should not stop you.
You are in the lucky position to have access to a lot of knowledge, experience and willingness to help you here.
I m jealous! You start your trip early and in 10 years if you keep on this track you'll be a wealth of knowledge and experience.
Don t let the usual things fool you ( money, girls, ego).
I Think MiniDSP openDRC-DA8 is very nice.
I use Jriver (for all playback and some DSP). Rephase (where I make most of the filter (FIR But only minimal phase filters). And REW for measuring.
On top of that you Can use the first Apple Remote for volume mute and filter settings.
In that package you Can play and learn a lot.
It is not expensive compared to what a decent 3-way filter costs.
I use Jriver (for all playback and some DSP). Rephase (where I make most of the filter (FIR But only minimal phase filters). And REW for measuring.
On top of that you Can use the first Apple Remote for volume mute and filter settings.
In that package you Can play and learn a lot.
It is not expensive compared to what a decent 3-way filter costs.
I think any decent ~1" dome will be a better match for a 6.5" mid. For the crossover look at Zaph's ZRT for inspiration:
Zaph|Audio - ZRT - Revelator Tower
LR4 just below 2kHz is where you want to be.
Yeah I would probably still prefer any magnesium cone. I'll shove my 6,5" and 110 dB obsessions out of the way. How about using the D3004/662000 with the W15CY001? I'll have magnesium, a lower moving mass and so better impuls response and detail and it can cross just a little higher. I think that would be a pretty good option as well.
That will be a very good option and I'll probably take it but how about the Hiquphon with MR13P-4? I'm totally happy (for real) with the above mentioned setup but I just want to know what you would say about the Hiquphon because when crossed high enough with the MR13P-4 I think this might potentially be a superior tweeter. I know I'm basing this on the fact Kroma uses them and Kroma is pretty much all about the cabinet when you look at the price and then the price of the drivers they put in them but they probably won't be suing the Hiquphon just for it's golden looks.
That will be a very good option and I'll probably take it but how about the Hiquphon with MR13P-4? I'm totally happy (for real) with the above mentioned setup but I just want to know what you would say about the Hiquphon because when crossed high enough with the MR13P-4 I think this might potentially be a superior tweeter. I know I'm basing this on the fact Kroma uses them and Kroma is pretty much all about the cabinet when you look at the price and then the price of the drivers they put in them but they probably won't be suing the Hiquphon just for it's golden looks.
The Satori TW29's are no match to a 6,5 inch mid like MW16. SB26 is. But MR16, MW13 or MR13 don't match with SB26 SPL. Crossover at 200 12dB/oct.
OW3 is a small tweeter more suitable for small 2-ways or maybe a supertweeter in a 4-way. To keep max SPL high, crossover high. Then run into beaming and center to center spacing issues. Been there, done that. Even got the bloody t-shirt.
I liked to play loud as a teenager as well. Keep in mind that with a good setup, loud doesn't distort the way you are used to. You can perfectly create a recipe for painless hearing loss. You won't even notice you're destroying your ears with a good speaker because it stills sounds clean. I wish someone told me this before I ever started this hobby.
Go download VituixCAD, simulate your drivers, box, baffle and crossover with it in this one program.
Start out with your current midwoofers, get some SB26's buy some LM amps on djuke.nl (my current amp is in the gallery, it was built by Jeroen Mantel) so you can go tri-amp active crossover. Choose a good crossover box, simulate everything in VituixCAD and build the damn thing. Focusing on drivers alone will not give you any result at all. Invest in learning how to equalize and crossover your drivers. Learn about Q and building boxes. It will get you in a better place to decide your next driver choices, because then you will know what it takes to build a speaker to your liking. Trust me, it's not only the driver that matters.
OW3 is a small tweeter more suitable for small 2-ways or maybe a supertweeter in a 4-way. To keep max SPL high, crossover high. Then run into beaming and center to center spacing issues. Been there, done that. Even got the bloody t-shirt.
I liked to play loud as a teenager as well. Keep in mind that with a good setup, loud doesn't distort the way you are used to. You can perfectly create a recipe for painless hearing loss. You won't even notice you're destroying your ears with a good speaker because it stills sounds clean. I wish someone told me this before I ever started this hobby.
Go download VituixCAD, simulate your drivers, box, baffle and crossover with it in this one program.
Start out with your current midwoofers, get some SB26's buy some LM amps on djuke.nl (my current amp is in the gallery, it was built by Jeroen Mantel) so you can go tri-amp active crossover. Choose a good crossover box, simulate everything in VituixCAD and build the damn thing. Focusing on drivers alone will not give you any result at all. Invest in learning how to equalize and crossover your drivers. Learn about Q and building boxes. It will get you in a better place to decide your next driver choices, because then you will know what it takes to build a speaker to your liking. Trust me, it's not only the driver that matters.
I've looked up some reviews the Hiquphon. They seem to be quite okay when used properly but the opinions are very spread out and the opinions saying they're amazing don't seem to have a lot of arguments or experience to confirm it (not that I do) so I think the Scan-Speak, Illuminator are a safer choice, or at least not the Hiqufon.
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