My PP amp does not have crossover distortion. At all. So the point PP amps by definition have crossover distortion is bogus. Matching tubes is also unnecessary with a proper bias control. At least no more so than matching tubes in a stereo SE amp.
But my point was your jab at the peterfarrow's 'belief' statement and then claiming you KNOW a yet-to-build amp will sound better, solely based on output topology, That's religion in my book!
You and I have already gone head to head in several threads in the past where the underlying dispute was measurable facts v.s. un-measurable yet somehow audible claims. And here we are again.
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Occam's Razor tells us that the most likely cause of an apparent preference for higher distortion (SE and/or no feedback) is an actual preference for higher distortion. Note that higher distortion actually means (as a matter of fact) less 'transparency', unless you use transparency to mean 'dirty window' instead of 'clean window'.mr2racer said:
My definition is the usual definition of superior.
If to me (or any one else) it sounds of a higher quality and gives more listening enjoyment then by definition it is superior, always assuming that your reason for using the equipment is for listening and not for measuring.
If your listening enjoyment is spoiled by the fact that you know a piece of equipment does not conform to some pre supposed bench mark of technical specification when measured, then it clearly will not be superior to you.
Regards,
gsd
Not to step too deeply into this quagmire, but I can perhaps shed some light on this. I have learned that many musicians prefer that their electronics sing or play along with them, but many wind up with sterile, low distortion electronics anyway, or they go directly to digital. So, to make up for the sterility of this situation, it's possible that many of those who prefer SE designs are really missing the way recorded music used to be, where the electronics sang and played along with the musicians. Some of this is speculation on my part however, and worth every bit of those 2 cents. However, one thing is clearly evident from my efforts: the harmonic structure of the distortion is vastly different for SE designs as compared to PP or differential ones.
If it 'better fits my personal preferences' then to me the listening experience is higher quality.
I had no idea that by enjoying listening to music on certain equipment I was making ' a common mistake'
Do forgive me for my category error.
Regards,
gsd
Also, don't forget that those who preach "lowest distortion no matter what or where" are practicing their own kind of religion also. It seems to me that the SE folks are the underdogs and the former are the truly tyrannical ones. Let everyone have what they like. Audio should be egalitarian, not totalitarian.
My bass amps certainly don't abide by what-goes-in-must-come-out. There's loads of distortion added, mainly even harmonic, and I like it! The whole point is tone shaping and adding a personal flavor to the sound. So yes, distortion with musical instrumentation can be preferable. But taking a recording, with all it layers of instruments, vocals and whatnot, carefully recorded, mixed and mastered (in some cases at least) and smacking a single signature of distortion against it to 'liven up the sound'? That can't be anyone's goal, can it? Unless it is, but then be frank about it and don't call the equipment 'better'.
Amplification by definition is taking a small signal and making it bigger. Any alteration/distortion is steering away from that very definition and the device should now be considered an effects box, tone shaper, 'enhancer' or whatever you want to call it, but as far as true 'amplification' goes can never be considered superior.
It can however meet someone's personal taste or preference which can never be disputed either, just like the preference for zero-distortion equipment. But it's just that; preference. When people start confusing personal preference with superiority, listening sessions with actual measurements or discarding entire topologies based on bogus arguments, that's when the discussions heat up. Nothing to do with tyranny or Egalitarianism.
No confusion
I prefer equipment that sounds better to me because I am the one who is going to listen to it!
If it happens to measure well I'm o.k. with that but if it doesn't then I'm not going to stop listening just because others may think it shouldn't based on some premise that measurement necessarily tells you about sound.
If you get too paranoid about measured performance you will probably never get to enjoy the music however I'm sure that there is no shortage of people who prefer the specs to the sound!
Regards,
gsd
I don't know who you talk to but everyone I know builds SE amps purely on what they can hear. This includes professional musicians.
Blinded by science, and lack of sensitivity to the timbre of acoustic instruments including particularly the voice but also orchestral strings, wind, brass and percussion may not be "a common fault" but it also exists and we regularly read it in these pages.
No one has imposed anything on the SE folks, people are just trying to get them to practice a bit of humility and not declare their chosen flavour to be intrinsically superior. They are entitled to their opinion and taste - but thats all it ever can be when they have nothing else to back up their position.
Shoog
I can only speak for myself.
If it sounds 'superior' to me then it is!
There is no divine benchmark to measure by (as far as i know) therefore audio equipment can only be described as superior with some attendant qualification
e.g
superior in some kind of measurement
superior in looks
superior in value for money
superior in listening enjoyment
etc.
As previously stated for me it is sound quality based on my own preferences.
To say that something that to me sounds worse but measures better would be superior makes no sense but perhaps others know better.
Regards,
Ps.Please regard my humility as now increased.
gsd
Talk of 'underdogs' and 'tyranny' suggest some form of coercion is taking place. Last time I checked there were not vicious hordes of engineers patrolling around wresting cherished SE amps from the hands of their secretive owners and then publicly smashing them up.dirkwright said:
All that is happening is that some if us are trying to maintain the meanings of words and the reality of physics/maths. Is that too challenging for some people?
You are free to own and listen to as many SE amps as you like. You are free to describe them as 'better' than PP. I am free to tell you that you are mistaken.
if only measurements would matter, then everybody would (must) drive hybrid, energy passive home,and have class d hifi. think about new age dictatorship
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