And I can't imagine ever spending the money Lowther; much less Feastrex 
wants for a driver.
Way past the point of diminishing returns.
I feel for that kind of money (actually a lot less), I can (and am building) a lot better.
In that price range I see no reason to limit myself to "full range."
Some (obviously) still prefer it.
To each his own.
But why on earth feel insulted?
We all have our own opinions.
Why should I care if no one else shares my opinion, or hears the way I do?
wants for a driver. Way past the point of diminishing returns.
I feel for that kind of money (actually a lot less), I can (and am building) a lot better.
In that price range I see no reason to limit myself to "full range."
Some (obviously) still prefer it.
To each his own.
But why on earth feel insulted?
We all have our own opinions.
Why should I care if no one else shares my opinion, or hears the way I do?
DaveCan said:
I would venture that it is that you're post is coming off as not giving Tom any respect for a purchase he has already made, and not thinking about the context of his purchase... to get a speaker system where driver/box are as well matched, as well sorted, and with as much synergy as his Madisons, he'd have had to have dropped $15-25k, probably closer to the latter,maybe more -- remember he is not building this, he is buying retail.
The important thing is, he has a set of speakers he is REALLY happy with, he just wants to know, "i have these cabinets, which of these 2 sets of drivers should i keep for them"
dave
Honestly, this secondary system that I have been playing with lately (with the FE103E's), I have had the most enjoyment with. I enjoy this system a lot more than my big $$$ main system out in the theater room. Yes, it's for movies, but it's main function is 2-ch audio playback, which is why I bought the speakers I bought, the amp I bought, and the way I have it all set up. The video part of it is just a bonus.
With the main system, I spent over $2k towards the beginning of the year on just the front 3 speakers alone. The total cost of the speakers in my secondary system is roughly $100 including the BSC components. I am now a firm believer that the dollar amount of a system doesn't mean squat!
Just my 2 pennies...
With the main system, I spent over $2k towards the beginning of the year on just the front 3 speakers alone. The total cost of the speakers in my secondary system is roughly $100 including the BSC components. I am now a firm believer that the dollar amount of a system doesn't mean squat!
Just my 2 pennies...
planet10 said:
Tom, I didn't mean it that way at all... I was just making a comment about it seems a bit out of place to me... Very sorry if I caused any trouble to you... It would be cool to be your next door neighbour, but then again maybe I just assumed I'd be in favor to be invited over..
Dave
DaveCan, don't leave on my acount, buddy. I think you have a talent for zeroing in on the Achilles' heel of any debate, with no tap-dancing, and your directness makes for lively discussion. I like that.
Sorry for taking this so seriously. DaveCan, let's rewind and start over. I think it's a compliment to you that your posts inspire such impassioned reactions.
Sorry for taking this so seriously. DaveCan, let's rewind and start over. I think it's a compliment to you that your posts inspire such impassioned reactions.
No prob, I just don't get some of the comments made sometimes, like your being sold 1 + 1 = 3.. I guess if 1 got 1 with child, there could be 3, or 3 +, but it ain't what I'm referring to here..
And I'll take it that if I ever get my hands on Feastrex or the like, nobody will bother to want to come over and listen..
Still love you guys,
Dave
And I'll take it that if I ever get my hands on Feastrex or the like, nobody will bother to want to come over and listen..
Still love you guys,
Dave
I have never heard the Madison but I can say that I've had the 206 and 206esr compared side by side in the fostex 208 blh, the BIB, and open baffle with a 45 set, a 300b set, and a souped up dyna st70. The esr won hands down every time...to my own hearing.
Too bad I'm so far away, I'd love to hear that 845......
Too bad I'm so far away, I'd love to hear that 845......
DaveCan, I would be honored to come have a listen. All I meant to say was that for me, none of the expensive high-end drivers proved to be the life-changing experience that I expected.
Each manufacturer's high end turned out to be (roughly, broadly, approximately) pretty excellent quality-wise, with a different set of interesting trade-offs. Past a certain point, price became meaningless and only personal preference could decide.
That was my experience. Never heard the AER's though.
Re-reading my first post comment to TheTubeGuy, I can see how it could be taken as a slam against his choices or something .. For that I am very deeply sorry and did not mean it that way.. I also was not trying to say that the cab choice he is using is inferior in anyway, so Scott, Admiral Scott, I wasn't dissing your design nor have I even heard that cab, so when you get back on line I'm hoping you had a nice rest the night before..
Surely ( and no I didn't call you Shirley) you all must agree that if the law of diminishing returns applies to loudspeaker drivers then shouldn't the same apply to amplifiers? Point being, if the argument presented here is why spend money on drivers other than Fostex or their associated specially designed cabs, and waste your money, as the differences in sq over money spent ain't worth it. Then the same must apply to an amp worth $12500 over a $5000 one as example.. So my point was how about something other than Fostex for the price level involved here... I really didn't mean any negativity or arrogance to come across on my part .. Anyhow that's about it from this dude and I also agree that the 206esr as I said before, is a really nice driver..
Dave Trying to stay afloat in a sea of U-Boats....
Surely ( and no I didn't call you Shirley) you all must agree that if the law of diminishing returns applies to loudspeaker drivers then shouldn't the same apply to amplifiers? Point being, if the argument presented here is why spend money on drivers other than Fostex or their associated specially designed cabs, and waste your money, as the differences in sq over money spent ain't worth it. Then the same must apply to an amp worth $12500 over a $5000 one as example.. So my point was how about something other than Fostex for the price level involved here... I really didn't mean any negativity or arrogance to come across on my part .. Anyhow that's about it from this dude and I also agree that the 206esr as I said before, is a really nice driver..
Dave
Trying to stay afloat in a sea of U-Boats....
No offense taken or any such -as I said, it was near midnight here, & I had better things to be doing (forgive me) than writing a lengthy forum post -like knitting up the ravelled sleeve of care, as the Swan of Avon put it. OK, without going to extremes, I'd just like to generally point out that expensive FR drivers are a bit of a minefield. Would I automatically go for, say, a Lowther / AER or a Feastrex if I had the money? Not necessarily. The former have a rather poor basic FR (generally, not as good as the cheaper Fostex units. Granted, there's more to life than that, but it's still fairly important...
), while the latter are frighteningly expensive, and there is still a dearth of proper specs. & response plots for them, so you'd be buying blind. Also, the entry-level Feastrex models don't really lend themselves to a long horn, so if that's what you want, you'd have to go for their field coils & somehow catch your wallet before it runs away to Tierra del Fuego. No, I'm not saying that all pricey FR units are rubbish or any such nonsense. But I am saying that many have the weight of mythology to support, and just because the raw units cost a lot, that doesn't automatically mean you'll get superior performance (you might; equally, you might not). And that's before you start bringing the enclosure into the picture. FWIW, I do know that the Mk1 Madisons (Sachiko) were compared to a pair of Lamhorn 1.8s with AERs a few months ago, and the consensus of the listeners was that they flattened them. YMMV as ever of course.
Let us know how things progress. Top tip: clamps. Lots of them.
One point WRT 206ES-R & standard 206E that occurs. The ltd edn units will by nature have had somewhat tighter QC (not that the stock drivers are bad in this respect), so there's a good chance they will have the edge over some of the regular drivers that varied from average more than others. As many people seem to rate them as an upgrade over the stock driver in the midband & treble, it'd therefore probably be worth doing.
One point WRT 206ES-R & standard 206E that occurs. The ltd edn units will by nature have had somewhat tighter QC (not that the stock drivers are bad in this respect), so there's a good chance they will have the edge over some of the regular drivers that varied from average more than others. As many people seem to rate them as an upgrade over the stock driver in the midband & treble, it'd therefore probably be worth doing.
rjbond3rd said:
rjbond3rd & planet10 thanks for your POV! I really value Scott's opinion and being very DIY challenged I didn't want Scott to think I was just brushing his opinion ---{ which I know is backed by a wealth of practical knowledge ]--- as if it carried no more weight than mine on this topic. I've since read where Scott said "No offense taken..." and that was a relief to read!
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DaveCan your post didn't offend me in any way. I can readily understand how one could read where it appeared I had spent $20,000+ on an amp, cd player, cables etc. So when viewed in the light of that assumption, I too, would have questioned why the owner of those components couldn't or wouldn't spend the required funds to obtain a better driver than the FE206e or the FE206esr.
That said, I must say the FE206esr is a very high quality driver, in and of itself! Hopefully now that I've explained ---{ in a previous post }--- my present financial status and how I originally obtained those components you now have a better undertsanding of how and why I'm using these Fostex drivers!
Finally DaveCan I hope you don't decide to leave this forum. Trust me there's more than a molecule of love left for you here.
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Chops drop me an email at your convenience! For all other DIYAudio fullrange members my invite is basically an open one. "If" you're ever in the Orlando, Fla. area and would like to audition my system drop me an email at thetubeguy1954(at)yahoo(dot)com and we'll make arrangements for you to come over too!
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Planet10 Dave your following statement is 100% correct! The important thing is, he ---{Thetubeguy1954}--- has a set of speakers he is REALLY happy ---{ estatically happy actually ]---with, he just wants to know, "i have these cabinets, which of these 2 sets of drivers should i keep for them"
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Scott Thanks for this bit of info "FWIW, I do know that the Mk1 Madisons (Sachiko) were compared to a pair of Lamhorn 1.8s with AERs a few months ago, and the consensus of the listeners was that they flattened them. YMMV as ever of course." Having not had the opportunity to compare my Madison(v1)/Sachiko against any comparable single full range BLH designs it's nice to know that they not only competed with well-regarded Lamhorn/AER combo but, in many listeners opinions they bested them! WOW! I knew what I've been hearing was something special--- Thanks Scott!
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just a guy Not only is the Madison v2 a dedicated CarderSound cabinet ---{ as opposed to v1 being a OEM Sachiko enclosure }--- but Jeff Carder has told me they are sonically a good bit superior, being a true exponential horn! I can only imagine how much better they are, because when I listen to my v1 Madison/Sachiko enclosures I cannot imagine it getting much better than what I'm hearing!!!! They are honestly that much superior to any other speaker I've ever heard.
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Thanks to all who provided input. Let's all continue to work together towards expanding the sonic boundries of our systems. We have a lot more in common, than we have not in common, so let's focus on what we have in common, build each other up and help others here to get the most bang for the buck from their audio systems!
Thetubeguy1954
Scottmoose said:
That's great to hear, perhaps if you had a pair of AER's in hand to specially design for, they may win out after all? Hard to say, and no one will ever find out unfortunately.. I don't doubt that cab of yours is special, and perhaps your a better designer than the Lamhorn team, and so the flattening!!! Try and get a pair of AER's and specially design a cab for them, then compare them with the Fostex based Madison's side by side, that would be a neat observation...
just a guy said:
Hey we think alike, as clearly that statement is pointed in my direction, everything that cost's more has to be better, yes?, allrighty then..
thetubeguy1954 said:DaveCan your post didn't offend me in any way. I can readily understand how one could read where it appeared I had spent $20,000+ on an amp, cd player, cables etc. So when viewed in the light of that assumption, I too, would have questioned why the owner of those components couldn't or wouldn't spend the required funds to obtain a better driver than the FE206e or the FE206esr.
When you gave the invite to Chops and described your gear, I thought hey, I've never heard of those brands, and then looked them up, and quoted their new cost.. I rounded up the amp to $12,500 and the cd player to $6000. Factor in taxes, shipping, insurance, cables, a decent stand etc, one could assume a $20,000+ price tag quite easily as a new in box quote..
http://www.mayaudio.com/detail.asp?ItemID=4635&MCatID=174&MCat=MasterSound&SCat=Integrated%20Amplifier
http://www.audiolimits.com/html/bluenote_cd_player.html
Dave
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