Rebate depth, suprabaffle depth, actual material thickness all will affect the exact depth. Shims of paper can be used for spacing a brace just a bit shy.
You also need to take care not to overtighten. With a gasket used it is possible to actually bend the flange a bit, Tighten equally and just enuff to stop a washer (real or imaginary) from turning.
dave
You also need to take care not to overtighten. With a gasket used it is possible to actually bend the flange a bit, Tighten equally and just enuff to stop a washer (real or imaginary) from turning.
dave
Not one to leap before you look, are you?
That tongue is the only tricky bit, as the exact dimensions, wether Imperial or Metric, are precisely "no idea".
You want the magnet in close contact with the whole structure, otoh you don´t want to dent the driver. Have the tongue cut 1/8" short and add rubber or foam rubber (you get bands of it by the yard, used to get windows raintight) until you get that "OK, fits and sits" feeling.
The sense of it is to have the whole box´s weight, instead of just the driver´s flimsy basket, soak up the moving masses´ recoil. One of the "could do without it, but..." measures that DO make a difference.
Yes, you are right. I am not one to leap without a comfortable foundation to land on. My work involves spending taxpayer's monies on the unproven. I stack as many cards as possible in my favor and then throw the dice. The mental stress can be intense. White elephants are not held in the highest regard. Considering that my experiences include adjusting Porsche pancake clearances to the half thousandth inch maybe I could relax over a piece of wood.
I did not predict your procedure to include foam rubber. Limiting "moving mass recoil" and foam rubber don't seem to go together. I imagined that the function of the tongue was to firmly couple the speaker frame to the remainder of the cabinet in order to hold the frame rigid and, thus, maximize the transfer energy to the immediately surrounding air. I might have used hardwood shims or plastic playing cards to fill a 1/32th inch gap (my technique for leveling slate on pool tables). Just today, I was wondering about a removable suprabaffle and whether to bolt it wood to wood or with an intervening non-compressible one-cylinder head gasket. The things that haunt my mind.
Thank you for encouraging me (whether you intended to or not) to go through this. Nevertheless, I accept total responsibility for a possible white elephant. That is my job.
Suprabaffle? Tricky bit that if you are a perfectionist. Using a material different from the front panel helps, and a layer of the bitumen mats you use to have your car´s engine hood silent...I have some measurements somewhere, but they are from a Herr Doktor Deutscher Ingenieur who thinks everything below 101.5% is substandard. Nice guy, though.
Thank you for this description. I am not certain about the turning of a washer. Are you referencing a flat washer beneath the head of an aircraft bolt? I do not have the speakers and this perhaps explains my confusion. In fact, I doubt that I will buy them before building the cabinet. My sense of your cautionary note is that the torque specifications are in inch-pounds and certainly not foot-pounds?
On a related note. I read about your preference for flanged hex drive fasteners in place of t-nuts. I noticed a few builds where the flange was placed on the same side of the wood as the speaker. It seems that the flange would be better placed opposite the speaker. Then again, with inch-pound torque ..... Or, must the flange face the speaker so that the opposite side of the baffle can be chamfered. For that matter, is chamfering the backside of the baffle of proven sonic merit?
I noticed that you recently highlighted the benefit of cabinet bracing. Is bracing recommended for the Sachiko beyond what is shown by Scott's drawings?
Sorry for the barrage of questions but I want to stack the cards in my favor before the glue flows. Thank you.
Thanks for the comment Pit. There was a recent post that weighed the merit of bracing compared to doubling up wall thickness. My take was that bracing might be more effective than double wall thickness. I certainly don't know. Sounds like physics to me.
In my case, I am not looking for loud. In fact, I am looking for sensational at low volume. I had a bout of anaphylactic shock about 10 years ago that left me with tinnitus. I refused to listen to music for years because I was bitter. More recently I discovered, much to my surprise, that "musical" sound appears to be therapeutic. Thus, my revived interest in class a, low-wattage, and efficient speakers. I have reached diminishing returns with tweaking my more traditional hardware.
In my case, I am not looking for loud. In fact, I am looking for sensational at low volume. I had a bout of anaphylactic shock about 10 years ago that left me with tinnitus. I refused to listen to music for years because I was bitter. More recently I discovered, much to my surprise, that "musical" sound appears to be therapeutic. Thus, my revived interest in class a, low-wattage, and efficient speakers. I have reached diminishing returns with tweaking my more traditional hardware.
Oh boy. Some people have all the luck re. what sicknesses can hit you?
But you are on the right track. Ask Dave and colleagues what happens when a "Supermediamarket" customer first time hears largish horns. They believe those huge things are for listening LOUD...and then you turn the wick down. And down. And down. My guess is you´ve become more of a music fan.
"Midrange is where we live" - and that was Paul Klipsch, for Xsake.
But you are on the right track. Ask Dave and colleagues what happens when a "Supermediamarket" customer first time hears largish horns. They believe those huge things are for listening LOUD...and then you turn the wick down. And down. And down. My guess is you´ve become more of a music fan.
"Midrange is where we live" - and that was Paul Klipsch, for Xsake.
I went to Lowes to look at table saws and warped plywood. That was sobering. It would be best to spend my time working safely with electronics. With Pit's suggestions in mind, I initiated contact with a father/son team of cabinet makers who are selling 19 sheets of B/B grade 3/4" cherry plywood.They indicate that it could just as well be A grade. I do not know the number of plies at this time but I informed them that 13 ply 19mm (3/4) Baltic birch was typically used. Their shop is a 90 mi country drive from me so I could visit. It seems that the economy is tough on cabinet makers. I sent the Sachiko plans along with comments about panel A (2) and the speaker cutout. At the very least, I may buy 4 sheets of cherry plywood from them. I asked for estimates to cut the panels and for gluing the cabinet to together. I specified 9" panels for Hiro.
If someone thinks I am messing up by not going with Sachiko please let me know. In my naivety I came to the conclusion that Hiro is apt to be a better speaker for what I hope to achieve. It is not about money or weight. I don't want to mess with subs or tweeters as I imagined might be the case with Saburo or Sachiko. Plus the room may be relatively large for Saburo. Also, I simply like the frame on the 168eS. I prefer grill cloth to exposed speakers but I guess that is uncool. The 168eS is at least attractive.
Regarding having them glue the cabinet together. I realize that wires need to be run. Further, that dampening material may be indicated. Then there are those pesky panel A's. Do these considerations mean that I should specify that one side not be glued until after I tweak the region of the throat? Is there merit to applying a finish to the internal panels and, in particular, to the surfaces that line the horn passageways?
Should I specify a cutout for a binding terminal plate or, instead, can the binding terminals simply be installed through drilled holes in the back panel?
Should I specify a chamfer for the speaker cutout? The chamfer on Scott's drawing looks to be about 45 deg. The flange diameter of the 168eS is 44 mm greater than the cutout diameter specified by Fostex. I imagine that leaves enough space so that a 45 deg chamfer would not interfere with the placement of hex flange nuts?
Addtionally, these particular cabinet makers are Corian fabricators. I may ask them to design a plinth for the base that would accommodate spiked levelers. Is there merit to doubling the thickness of the bottom panel?
I suppose that with cherry veneers it would be a shame to specify a piano gloss black finish.
Thank you for comments.
If someone thinks I am messing up by not going with Sachiko please let me know. In my naivety I came to the conclusion that Hiro is apt to be a better speaker for what I hope to achieve. It is not about money or weight. I don't want to mess with subs or tweeters as I imagined might be the case with Saburo or Sachiko. Plus the room may be relatively large for Saburo. Also, I simply like the frame on the 168eS. I prefer grill cloth to exposed speakers but I guess that is uncool. The 168eS is at least attractive.
Regarding having them glue the cabinet together. I realize that wires need to be run. Further, that dampening material may be indicated. Then there are those pesky panel A's. Do these considerations mean that I should specify that one side not be glued until after I tweak the region of the throat? Is there merit to applying a finish to the internal panels and, in particular, to the surfaces that line the horn passageways?
Should I specify a cutout for a binding terminal plate or, instead, can the binding terminals simply be installed through drilled holes in the back panel?
Should I specify a chamfer for the speaker cutout? The chamfer on Scott's drawing looks to be about 45 deg. The flange diameter of the 168eS is 44 mm greater than the cutout diameter specified by Fostex. I imagine that leaves enough space so that a 45 deg chamfer would not interfere with the placement of hex flange nuts?
Addtionally, these particular cabinet makers are Corian fabricators. I may ask them to design a plinth for the base that would accommodate spiked levelers. Is there merit to doubling the thickness of the bottom panel?
I suppose that with cherry veneers it would be a shame to specify a piano gloss black finish.
Thank you for comments.
Êconomy tough on cabinet makers? I get the feeling that times are hard for everyone trying to earn a buck the honest way - it´s bandits wearing pinstripes who get rich. You say you spend taxpayer´s money - how much of your time is spent avoiding expenditure caused by some chairfarter upstairs?
OK, boxes. If they are willing and able to do piano glossy black, why have them do it to cherry ply - provided you prefer beautiful wood over paint. The time of sanding watering sanding watering is the same.
Chamfer. There are router bits with a roller bearing at the tip and you use them with a handheld router. You can leave "flesh" where the fasteners go in and chamfer like hell everywhere else.
Terminals. Buy before they start building. They have to do the wiring before gluing the second side panel on. And buy terminals that accept shoes or bananas rather than raw wire.
Damping. Shouldn´t be a problem. All of it is in the plenum chamber and you can tinker through the speaker cutout.
OK, just some more $.02 - excuse my comments rather being lenghty.
OK, boxes. If they are willing and able to do piano glossy black, why have them do it to cherry ply - provided you prefer beautiful wood over paint. The time of sanding watering sanding watering is the same.
Chamfer. There are router bits with a roller bearing at the tip and you use them with a handheld router. You can leave "flesh" where the fasteners go in and chamfer like hell everywhere else.
Terminals. Buy before they start building. They have to do the wiring before gluing the second side panel on. And buy terminals that accept shoes or bananas rather than raw wire.
Damping. Shouldn´t be a problem. All of it is in the plenum chamber and you can tinker through the speaker cutout.
OK, just some more $.02 - excuse my comments rather being lenghty.
Generally I complement the accounting folks. They try to reign me in from time to time. I often find myself in a position to make a funded project work despite that the funding was granted before the required technology is proven. This often leads to extremely targeted, innovative, and configured solutions whereby tradition purchasing procedures break down. I have paid a bunch of dues over the years and the bean counters generally cave quite easily once they have covered their butt. Plus, we are friendly. This takes place in a University setting so things are a little more malleable than what I imagine they might be in the hardcore cooperate setting. Sadly, as a matter of economics, our Universities, at least in my estimation, have been forced into the accountability standards that other organizations must endure. Sorry for the OT.
I was not serious about the piano gloss. I had thought about it earlier when I was considering a less visual plywood. I priced BB/B baltic birch at 71.00 plus shipping from NYC. The cherry plywood is B/B at 65.00 that is said to wholesale at 100.00. The cabinet makers have not had a call for cherry in awhile and must reduce their inventory. Plus, the distance (90 miles) to their shop allows that I could borrow a truck (or fix mine) and pick up the wood/cabinets for gas money. I noticed that routers were reasonably affordable at Lowes but for what may be a one time project until I retire I may borrow a router if I am to do the chamfering. Thank you for the instructions in this regard. There are eight mounting holes on the 168eS flange. I imagine that chamfering might be tricky. I suppose that I must literally have the parts in my hands to tie this down.
I have not received estimates yet but unless there is a problem with the cherry plywood I suspect that I will go this route. I am curious about having them do the finish work but I can't afford to have what started out as an idea for an affordable bookshelf speaker escalate into the wannabe of a Carder masterpiece.
I was not serious about the piano gloss. I had thought about it earlier when I was considering a less visual plywood. I priced BB/B baltic birch at 71.00 plus shipping from NYC. The cherry plywood is B/B at 65.00 that is said to wholesale at 100.00. The cabinet makers have not had a call for cherry in awhile and must reduce their inventory. Plus, the distance (90 miles) to their shop allows that I could borrow a truck (or fix mine) and pick up the wood/cabinets for gas money. I noticed that routers were reasonably affordable at Lowes but for what may be a one time project until I retire I may borrow a router if I am to do the chamfering. Thank you for the instructions in this regard. There are eight mounting holes on the 168eS flange. I imagine that chamfering might be tricky. I suppose that I must literally have the parts in my hands to tie this down.
I have not received estimates yet but unless there is a problem with the cherry plywood I suspect that I will go this route. I am curious about having them do the finish work but I can't afford to have what started out as an idea for an affordable bookshelf speaker escalate into the wannabe of a Carder masterpiece.
A very large number of questions; you'll find most have been answered already on various threads. Don't have much audio time so v. quickly:
-If they're a problem leave the extensions out. They're optional.
-Damping is a suck it and see thing. I leave it to people to adjust to their own requirements; all rooms and systems are different. If you want a baseline, line all internal faces of the low-pass chamber with 1/2in wool felt, carpet underlay or similar, and two faces, non-opposing, of the 1st manifold leading from the chamber to the rear of the cabinet.
I wouldn't leave one unglued. It's more trouble than it's worth.
Some people think so. Clark Blumenstein is an advocate. YMMV. Probably a coat of shellac slapped on to seal things would do if you wanted to.
Whatever you like. Entirely up to you. Who am I to tell people what binding posts / terminal cups / whatever to use?
Yes.
I can't think of a demerit.
-If they're a problem leave the extensions out. They're optional.
-Damping is a suck it and see thing. I leave it to people to adjust to their own requirements; all rooms and systems are different. If you want a baseline, line all internal faces of the low-pass chamber with 1/2in wool felt, carpet underlay or similar, and two faces, non-opposing, of the 1st manifold leading from the chamber to the rear of the cabinet.
I wouldn't leave one unglued. It's more trouble than it's worth.
Some people think so. Clark Blumenstein is an advocate. YMMV. Probably a coat of shellac slapped on to seal things would do if you wanted to.
Whatever you like. Entirely up to you. Who am I to tell people what binding posts / terminal cups / whatever to use?
Yes.
I can't think of a demerit.
A couple guidelines:
1/ if you are not using a cup, but posts thru a panel, make sure they are mounted where you can get a soldering iron to the backside.
2/ If you are using a cup, the one with the smallest cutout is "better"
3/ Actual posts should have as little metal as possible... the ones with plastic nuts are usually better than the heavy metal ones. (Avoid the chinese WBT clones, there are a lot better for a lot cheaper)
dave
Thanks for the comment Dave. Piano black is not going to happen. I have a friend who is highly accomplished in finish work. He was interested in applying a black gloss as part of a barter between us. This was before I considered using a high grade cherry plywood. I have wrestled with oil finishing in the past and suspect that, in the interest of finances, it is my elbow grease that will apply the finish.
Sorry mate, but I think you have a severe problem of lacking self esteem.
Pit! You were the one that alerted me to the possibility of benefiting from a cabinet maker. For which a totally agree. I am already a bit of a full range speaker; broadly tuned but not highly focused in a region of expertise.
Speaking of self-esteem. I have had the good fortune of being beat to death by some of the greatest players. I used to study Oliver Ortman. I find it interesting that the German players are fearless of the head corner pockets. I applaud them for innovation but question their position play. But not openly. I recently learned a few things from watching Immomen (Finnish). I have also adopted a few things from the transported U.K. snooker players. I refuse to accept that my talent is lacking. This kind of struggle keeps me open to possibilities like orchestrating Hiro.
Thank you for alerting me to this. I had not considered the consequences of a fail connection. I imagine that the advantage of minimizing the metal component of the binding post has to do with possible inductive properties.
Few dollars wisely invested, good connects are. If you can get them, Neutrik (Switzerland) are studio standard and cheaper than some "Designer" nonsense.
As to billiard - carambolage rather than pool (no holes in the table - that kind). Our tutor had partly financed his studying (MD) by playing for money...I knew from the first moment that I´d never beat him.
As to billiard - carambolage rather than pool (no holes in the table - that kind). Our tutor had partly financed his studying (MD) by playing for money...I knew from the first moment that I´d never beat him.
Plywood thickness - update
Arrgh! My potential cabinet maker tells me that the cherry plywood is 17.5 mm. Based on his experience with speaker cabinets, he says that 1.5 mm difference is significant relative the 19 mm specified in Scott's drawing. He does not want to take on the work for fear that it will fail and I will be dissatisfied. Honesty and integrity; and in this economy. Gotta love it. Back to the drawing board; so to speak. I need to get some closure on this before my day job gets away from me.
Now if I want to pursue this I have to hold his hand in the same manner that the DIY community has held mine. I need to regroup.
Arrgh! My potential cabinet maker tells me that the cherry plywood is 17.5 mm. Based on his experience with speaker cabinets, he says that 1.5 mm difference is significant relative the 19 mm specified in Scott's drawing. He does not want to take on the work for fear that it will fail and I will be dissatisfied. Honesty and integrity; and in this economy. Gotta love it. Back to the drawing board; so to speak. I need to get some closure on this before my day job gets away from me.
Now if I want to pursue this I have to hold his hand in the same manner that the DIY community has held mine. I need to regroup.
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