Hmm. Interesting set of questions. Working though a few briefly:
-168eS does indeed refer to the FE168ESigma. The old 168Sigma, which was a very different unit, has been defunct for years (about 9 IIRC). All of these cabinets date from the FExx6E and FExx6ESgima period.
-The FE168ESigma will work in the Hiro cabinet, although preferably with a low DF amp.
-Don't know why this box has been less popular than the smaller & larger cabinets in the range. My own assumption is that once you get to this kind of size, most people decide they might as well build the largest and have done with it.
-No 'sic' required. The site is the Frugal horn site. The small 126 corner horn is the Frugel-horn, a reference to the Flugelhorn.
-For the sake of interest / information, most back-horns do not have a compression chamber other than the room they are sitting in. They do have a low-pass chamber though (not the same thing). Nominally it shouldn't need adjusting, although of course you'll want to play with this and the damping employed to suit your own requirements.
-These cabinets are quite heavy, so temporary castors & getting a friend to help shift them is a good idea.
-Speed & detail are subjects fraught with danger because it depends what you mean by them, and comparing dissimilar sized units just makes the dangers greater. FWIW, I suspect many people would consider the 168 to have more of both.
-168eS does indeed refer to the FE168ESigma. The old 168Sigma, which was a very different unit, has been defunct for years (about 9 IIRC). All of these cabinets date from the FExx6E and FExx6ESgima period.
-The FE168ESigma will work in the Hiro cabinet, although preferably with a low DF amp.
-Don't know why this box has been less popular than the smaller & larger cabinets in the range. My own assumption is that once you get to this kind of size, most people decide they might as well build the largest and have done with it.
-No 'sic' required. The site is the Frugal horn site. The small 126 corner horn is the Frugel-horn, a reference to the Flugelhorn.
-For the sake of interest / information, most back-horns do not have a compression chamber other than the room they are sitting in. They do have a low-pass chamber though (not the same thing). Nominally it shouldn't need adjusting, although of course you'll want to play with this and the damping employed to suit your own requirements.
-These cabinets are quite heavy, so temporary castors & getting a friend to help shift them is a good idea.
-Speed & detail are subjects fraught with danger because it depends what you mean by them, and comparing dissimilar sized units just makes the dangers greater. FWIW, I suspect many people would consider the 168 to have more of both.
Speed & detail...yeah. Clever salespersons talking torrents about "ultrafast bass"...for Xsake, impulse response is mainly a function of the drivers´ HF limits, and the 168 definitely is not a slug there.
Re. extinct drivers, btw - the 206E has joined the dinosaurs (wipes off a manly teardrop) - has anyone first impressions of the 206En?
Re. extinct drivers, btw - the 206E has joined the dinosaurs (wipes off a manly teardrop) - has anyone first impressions of the 206En?
Right; given that speed / transient response is inherently linked to BW, you'd have to get up very early in the morning to find a wide-band driver that was poor on that score. 
And the 168 is certainly no slouch even by this criteria; there's very little inertia in its powertrain & theoretical Newtonian maximum acceleration factor is 1501.5 metres per second per second per ampere. Which is a lot. No direct corrolation to transient response, but still interesting.
I love the idea of 'fast' bass. That'll be what's known as 'treble' then. As far as Hiro & Sachiko go, they have identical flare-path length, so group-delay is the same for both.
Re the 206En, Freddy's posted a few I believe, & Bob seems to be in a happier mood since Freddy's measures indicate he can use it to replace the defunct 207s. With only 53% of the Xmax of the old 206/7E units, dynamic BW is taking a heck of a hit though.
And the 168 is certainly no slouch even by this criteria; there's very little inertia in its powertrain & theoretical Newtonian maximum acceleration factor is 1501.5 metres per second per second per ampere. Which is a lot. No direct corrolation to transient response, but still interesting. I love the idea of 'fast' bass. That'll be what's known as 'treble' then.
As far as Hiro & Sachiko go, they have identical flare-path length, so group-delay is the same for both. Re the 206En, Freddy's posted a few I believe, & Bob seems to be in a happier mood since Freddy's measures indicate he can use it to replace the defunct 207s. With only 53% of the Xmax of the old 206/7E units, dynamic BW is taking a heck of a hit though.
This was exactly my reasoning for building Sachiko rather than Hiro or Saburo. There is a Saburo for sale less than a day's drive from me for 350.00. I imagine this to be an exceptional price. But by the time I factored in gas, van rental, and whether I truly want this speaker I returned to thoughts of building my own. Learning that Saburo might be shy on bass led me to consider whether Hiro might have adequate bass. I do not want to become involved with bi-amping and subs.
My interest in Hiro is not so much driven by weight, but by whether Hiro might make a better speaker for what I hope to achieve regardless of weight, size, or cost.
For now I am looking into the cost of a table saw versus finding a local cabinet maker to cut the panels.
The flat pack pictures at the Planet10 site indicate that the cabinet sides are grooved for the internal panels. Is there sonic merit to this?
Thank you for your comments.
Saburo isn't actually shy on bass, it has exactly the same flare-path length & goes down just as low as Hiro & Sachiko. What it doesn't have is the raw efficiency and dynamic bandwidth of the larger speakers (smaller driver, with less linear excursion), so it will depend on your room size, how loud you listen, and how much emphasis you place on low frequency dynamic bandwidth. In the modest sized room shown below (about 17ft x 12ft x 10ft), the Saburos were quite cheerfully thundering out The Prodigy, although they'd naturally run out of steam in larger rooms.
The flat pack panels were groved more because that's the best way of doing kits IIRC; it makes life easier for home-assembly.
The flat pack panels were groved more because that's the best way of doing kits IIRC; it makes life easier for home-assembly.
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Iae - re. table saw: think twice, count your pennies and think again. If you intend to use it more often, a good one might be worth buying - but your bank manager might have different ideas.
A professional cabinet maker will have spent several Porsche´s worth on his machinery and have the experience to get the last bit of precision out of it.
(Old workshop wisdom: tolerances bunch up. Always at the wrong place and in the wrong direction.)
If you can use Scott´s cutting plan (ie US norm panels are the same size as UK) the nice guy might even make you a good offer re. the wood, as he doesn´t have to bill you the cuts he throws away.
Side panels with grooves CNCed - wonderful if you can get them. Building is like paint-by-numbers...you save $$$ on all the tricky clamps and headache pills you don´t need.
Just my $.02 - YMMD.
A professional cabinet maker will have spent several Porsche´s worth on his machinery and have the experience to get the last bit of precision out of it.
(Old workshop wisdom: tolerances bunch up. Always at the wrong place and in the wrong direction.)
If you can use Scott´s cutting plan (ie US norm panels are the same size as UK) the nice guy might even make you a good offer re. the wood, as he doesn´t have to bill you the cuts he throws away.
Side panels with grooves CNCed - wonderful if you can get them. Building is like paint-by-numbers...you save $$$ on all the tricky clamps and headache pills you don´t need.
Just my $.02 - YMMD.
My listening room is 16X24X8 feet. Plus, a regulation Gold Crown places the listening position at 12 feet or more. Further, a stone fountain forces the the speakers to be at least 3 feet out from the wall.
The Gold Crown weighs 1200 pounds. Thus, micro-tuning speaker position for critical listening must accommodate the table. My interest in the dual horns, whether having merit or not, is partly due to the psychological effect of having horns near the ceiling to offset the dominance of the table and table light. My Aerials face considerably upward and the vertical sweet spot is best achieved while sitting on a bar stool. Perhaps Hiro, more so than Saburo, would better impose itself in this environment. Thank you for helping me to work through this process.
The Gold Crown weighs 1200 pounds. Thus, micro-tuning speaker position for critical listening must accommodate the table. My interest in the dual horns, whether having merit or not, is partly due to the psychological effect of having horns near the ceiling to offset the dominance of the table and table light. My Aerials face considerably upward and the vertical sweet spot is best achieved while sitting on a bar stool. Perhaps Hiro, more so than Saburo, would better impose itself in this environment. Thank you for helping me to work through this process.
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10' is the min listening dist required for the Sachiko to come into focus, i think the Hiro/6.5" driver works at 9' although Scott L. may disagree with that.
You're fine at 12' but the table will interfere with imaging irregardless of the double mouth, to what extent will be something you'll have to figure out for yourself. Given the room size and with out a clear idea of layout i've a suspicious feeling you'll be better off moving the pool table further away from the fire place and placing the Austin 166 corner horns in the corners flanking the fire place. I'm pretty sure you can use a 168E∑ in the Austin's too.
You're fine at 12' but the table will interfere with imaging irregardless of the double mouth, to what extent will be something you'll have to figure out for yourself. Given the room size and with out a clear idea of layout i've a suspicious feeling you'll be better off moving the pool table further away from the fire place and placing the Austin 166 corner horns in the corners flanking the fire place. I'm pretty sure you can use a 168E∑ in the Austin's too.
I have a couple of questions about the Sachiko.
What materials can be used?
What is the best way to put it together? Glue and screws? Glue and woodplugs?
Screws will mess up the outside finish but glue and screws wont, what's best?
Will a pair of Sachiko fit in my room (see my own thread: What should i build?)?
Will the 206En work as well as 206E?
What materials can be used?
What is the best way to put it together? Glue and screws? Glue and woodplugs?
Screws will mess up the outside finish but glue and screws wont, what's best?
Will a pair of Sachiko fit in my room (see my own thread: What should i build?)?
Will the 206En work as well as 206E?
The grooves are there only to minimize assembly error.
We would assemble with glue, clamps, and brad nails. We finish with veneer so the brad nails aren't an issue.
It could be done with clamps, glue & jigs, but would take a lot longer waiting for glue to dry before doing the next batch of panels.
dave
Erm...was there once that wee problem of a rabid tablesaw always munching you? I seem to recall you have sort of a reputation...
Pit - investing in bandaids and polysporin would be a good idea -
, but actually it's more like focusing on individual areas of "expertise" - and even then it can frequently take me several attempts to get the finer details quite right as my dad might have said - "fine woodworking" is a series of actions turning flaws in materials and prior workmanship into statements of artistic expression
Well, the room's an acoustic nightmare with that pool table. If I'm not reading things incorrectly, sounds like you're listening behind the table, so that pretty much puts the lid on high quality sound; there'll be reflections etc. all over the shop.
I too would avoid screws. Don't like them. Good quality glue and clamps. Lots of clamps. Plywood, preferably BB as a build material.
Don't know, I'm about dead on my feet, so I don't have time to go a-searching other threads. You need a reasonably sized space though (say 18ft+ long) and to be sitting about 10ft from them.
The new 206En will go in, but won't work anything like as well as the old model; they've slashed its linear displacement practically in half (53% of what it used to be), so useable dynamic headroom has dropped significantly.
Sachiko will be better than a lot; it's got size on its side, but IMO, the En needs to be used differently; tuned higher, gain rather than extension. I've just completed a new design for it with that in mind, but it won't be one for the FH site. If you fancied being a beta-tester for it though, contact Dave or myself.- Status
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