Thanks x. It should be easy enough to try once I get the Karlson style open baffle boxes built. As you pointed out, there likely would be tradeoffs either way, so it may be more a taste thing rather than a matter of one being better than another.
I have a pair of old EMI elliptical (6x13) speakers (Qts=0.6) which I would like to try as open baffle midbass speakers under a set of Lowthers on open baffle. This sort of arrangement could work for these. The EMI speakers seem to have a sound quality similar to the Lowthers, so they may work well together (although their Qts values are quite different).
Great work in this thread, by the way. I come across work that you do from time-to-time in different threads and I am impressed by all the work that you do and share with others.
The other possible speaker configuration I am considering for the Lowthers is to build a Synergy Horn for them, which, of course, require that I build the midbass drivers into the horn.
Retsel
Hi all!
This KaZba Dipole project is fascinating!
I am wanting to take my 8" Audio Nirvana Alnico drivers to dipoles and am trying to solve the bass part - this looks like the ticket!
In particular using the Dayton RSS225 8"ers to form the bass is approachable for me cost wise.
Having the baffle for the ANs on top of the KaZba ala Linkwitz Orions should go well, with a crossover at around 300Hz - hopefully..
I just have a few questions before I go any further with the concept:
1) This project would require a MiniDSP (which is fine), but MiniDSPs require bi-amping.
What kind of wattage amp should I need for the Daytons? Is 100 watts enough? Or should I go (much) higher? For reference the ANs on top are 90db efficient and I aim to run them through my 6.5watt tube amp which is normally *plenty* loud.
2) With the dual Daytons, is using the 8ohms ones in parallel ones better than the 4ohms in series? The 4ohm versions are slightly on sale at my local shop and will save me $40AUD overall if I get them instead. Will there be much difference?
Thanks for your help!
This KaZba Dipole project is fascinating!
I am wanting to take my 8" Audio Nirvana Alnico drivers to dipoles and am trying to solve the bass part - this looks like the ticket!
In particular using the Dayton RSS225 8"ers to form the bass is approachable for me cost wise.
Having the baffle for the ANs on top of the KaZba ala Linkwitz Orions should go well, with a crossover at around 300Hz - hopefully..
I just have a few questions before I go any further with the concept:
1) This project would require a MiniDSP (which is fine), but MiniDSPs require bi-amping.
What kind of wattage amp should I need for the Daytons? Is 100 watts enough? Or should I go (much) higher? For reference the ANs on top are 90db efficient and I aim to run them through my 6.5watt tube amp which is normally *plenty* loud.
2) With the dual Daytons, is using the 8ohms ones in parallel ones better than the 4ohms in series? The 4ohm versions are slightly on sale at my local shop and will save me $40AUD overall if I get them instead. Will there be much difference?
Thanks for your help!
Ok I've read up on it and yes, I should get the 8 ohm ones and wire them in parallel for extra spl.
Also, they take 80 watts Rams and 160 max - so am I right in assuming a 200watt per channel will be ok? (~100watts x 2 due to parallel wiring).
One other question is then how far do these speakers need to be from the front wall?
Many dipoles need to be 3 feet from the front wall otherwise they make no bass - is this also the case for speakers in this configuration?
Also, they take 80 watts Rams and 160 max - so am I right in assuming a 200watt per channel will be ok? (~100watts x 2 due to parallel wiring).
One other question is then how far do these speakers need to be from the front wall?
Many dipoles need to be 3 feet from the front wall otherwise they make no bass - is this also the case for speakers in this configuration?
Hey xrk971,
I'm having trouble finding a cheap amp that goes harder than 100 watts per channel without the fear that I get a lot of noise.
To be precise, the 120watt amp I was thinking of is a TDA8950. But I heard reports of hiss or hum from various posters on the forum. All the other 150watt TDA amps require bizarre power supplies that I am finding difficult to source in Australia.
The TPA3116D2's and TK2050's seem to be a safer bet but they max out at 100watts per channel with a volume control pot.
You said you were running your Daytons on 70watts per channel. Were you personally satisfied with the amount of volume you got from that or did you need more (or much more)? I don't get many chances to blast my stereo as it's in the living room and I have neighbours nearby.
Do you think 100watts would be enough?
Thanks for all your help so far!
I'm having trouble finding a cheap amp that goes harder than 100 watts per channel without the fear that I get a lot of noise.
To be precise, the 120watt amp I was thinking of is a TDA8950. But I heard reports of hiss or hum from various posters on the forum. All the other 150watt TDA amps require bizarre power supplies that I am finding difficult to source in Australia.
The TPA3116D2's and TK2050's seem to be a safer bet but they max out at 100watts per channel with a volume control pot.
You said you were running your Daytons on 70watts per channel. Were you personally satisfied with the amount of volume you got from that or did you need more (or much more)? I don't get many chances to blast my stereo as it's in the living room and I have neighbours nearby.
Do you think 100watts would be enough?
Thanks for all your help so far!
You can try IRS2092 - will need a dual rail PSU though. 200w 2092's are about $20 to $40. PSU about $50. They are very clean low distortion.
I now personally use my own hand built amps - they are class AB solid state. I have the FH9HV that is good for about 125w and is very clean low distortion. Building ones own amps ensures they sound good and don't cost too much.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/164093-100w-ultimate-fidelity-amplifier-790.html
FH9HV is simple and parts cost maybe $20 not including PSU.
My reference amp is the VHEX+ though. Good for 95w and sounds fantastic. Better bass than any class D amp.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/286992-irfp240-9240-amplifier-simulated-tina-41.html
I now personally use my own hand built amps - they are class AB solid state. I have the FH9HV that is good for about 125w and is very clean low distortion. Building ones own amps ensures they sound good and don't cost too much.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/164093-100w-ultimate-fidelity-amplifier-790.html
FH9HV is simple and parts cost maybe $20 not including PSU.
My reference amp is the VHEX+ though. Good for 95w and sounds fantastic. Better bass than any class D amp.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/286992-irfp240-9240-amplifier-simulated-tina-41.html
Hi xrk,
Thanks for your reply.
I am nowhere near your level of building amps from scratch! What you have done is very impressive to me!
I feel for my stage just using a premade amp on a board and mating it with a suitable power supply would be easiest, especially since individual component sourcing gets very expensive fast in Australia.
Another question for your choice of drivers, there are two versions of the Dayton RS225s - one with a paper cone (RS225P) and one with synthetic (RS225). Both are the same price.
Do you have any thoughts about one way or another?
The Fs of the synthetic one is lower (27.6Hz vs 32.3Hz), but the sensitivity of the paper cone is greater (90 vs 86). Power handling, Qts and xmax appears to be the same.
Would the paper cone give a snappier bass response in your estimation? The higher efficiency of the drivers is attractive, as I can then buy a lower powered amp for them (possibly run them from a single amp with my full-rangers on top?). The only thing in my mind is the higher Fs, so they wouldn't go as deep, yeah? What do you think?
Thanks for your reply.
I am nowhere near your level of building amps from scratch! What you have done is very impressive to me!
I feel for my stage just using a premade amp on a board and mating it with a suitable power supply would be easiest, especially since individual component sourcing gets very expensive fast in Australia.
Another question for your choice of drivers, there are two versions of the Dayton RS225s - one with a paper cone (RS225P) and one with synthetic (RS225). Both are the same price.
Do you have any thoughts about one way or another?
The Fs of the synthetic one is lower (27.6Hz vs 32.3Hz), but the sensitivity of the paper cone is greater (90 vs 86). Power handling, Qts and xmax appears to be the same.
Would the paper cone give a snappier bass response in your estimation? The higher efficiency of the drivers is attractive, as I can then buy a lower powered amp for them (possibly run them from a single amp with my full-rangers on top?). The only thing in my mind is the higher Fs, so they wouldn't go as deep, yeah? What do you think?
I personally have the RS225-8 aluminum cone. It sounds very nice - but there may be a 5k peak to deal with if crossing high. I have the smaller RS180P-8. I think the paper cone will sound smoother. Both will be fine but depends on if you like sound of paper vs aluminum. I think deeper bass extension is afforded by aluminum cone. This driver is unique in market segment and value leader. You can't find another one with these features at this price.
Hi x,
Yeah it's hard to choose - it's interesting that you say the aluminium cone can go deeper though - is that a function of the material itself or due to some other reason?
The reason I ask is because the frequency response graphs have the paper cone going deeper at a higher spl than the aluminium, and with a smoother curve..
Yeah it's hard to choose - it's interesting that you say the aluminium cone can go deeper though - is that a function of the material itself or due to some other reason?
The reason I ask is because the frequency response graphs have the paper cone going deeper at a higher spl than the aluminium, and with a smoother curve..
It's really a function of how heavy the cone is. The paper cone has mass of 21g and aluminum is 36g. The heavier cone has lower resonance frequency of 28Hz. Lighter cone is 32Hz bit lighter cones are more sensitive. It looks like there is a sale on paper RS225P-8 right now. That's a great price. I might have to get a pair 
You would be my favourite person in the universe if you got the paper and compared it with the aluminium!
Everyone else comparing them only has one or the other and then comparing them academically.
I have noticed a trend of people saying metal cones go deeper and have a tighter sound - but the frequency response graph of the paper is so much better, and is more sensitive to boot...
It's so hard to choose! Do I go by frequency response graph, or by people's experiences with just the aluminium without directly comparing the paper?
Everyone else comparing them only has one or the other and then comparing them academically.
I have noticed a trend of people saying metal cones go deeper and have a tighter sound - but the frequency response graph of the paper is so much better, and is more sensitive to boot...
It's so hard to choose! Do I go by frequency response graph, or by people's experiences with just the aluminium without directly comparing the paper?
I just got an ESS Heil AMT tweeter. Been looking to build me a mono speaker and want to use the AMT for the top and I allready have two scanspeak 21w8555 woofers but I could get me a pair of vifa m30wo for a good price. What woofer should I choose for the kaZba dipol?
I will make a scaled down k15 also but would be fun to try kaZba allso.
http://www.audiokit.it/ITAENG/Altoparlanti/VIFA/M30WO-49-08.pdf
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/archive/21w-8555-00.pdf
The room they will play in is about 20 sqm and the amp is a QSC RMX850 and will be using a minidsp or deq 2496.
I will make a scaled down k15 also but would be fun to try kaZba allso.
http://www.audiokit.it/ITAENG/Altoparlanti/VIFA/M30WO-49-08.pdf
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/archive/21w-8555-00.pdf
The room they will play in is about 20 sqm and the amp is a QSC RMX850 and will be using a minidsp or deq 2496.
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I think the Vifa 12in woofers would be good for this application as they are more sensitive and can move more air being larger. I am not sure what the xmax is on them though. I think the SS look like they can move more given how big that rubber surround looks but it is a smaller driver. However, you have it already and that is a big plus. Nice to have those Heil AMT's - perhaps the finest tweeter ever made. I would cross at about 800Hz with 4th order LR low pass on the woofers and 2nd order Bessel high pass on tweeter. Go for a quasi transient perfect Harsch XO. The dynamics will sound spectacular with the Kazba and Heil.
You would be my favourite person in the universe if you got the paper and compared it with the aluminium!
Everyone else comparing them only has one or the other and then comparing them academically.
I have noticed a trend of people saying metal cones go deeper and have a tighter sound - but the frequency response graph of the paper is so much better, and is more sensitive to boot...
It's so hard to choose! Do I go by frequency response graph, or by people's experiences with just the aluminium without directly comparing the paper?
I am working on my next reference monitor with the paper cones so should be able to give subjective impression and measurements when done. It is a slow, deliberative project though so don't expect my foam core build speed on this one.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/297171-rs28f-rs180p-b80-hole-filler-3-way.html
Thank you xrk for the recomendations. The thing is I could sell the ss21w8555 and buy the vifa 12" woofers for a hole lot less. I also got offered a pair of eghteensound 15NMB420 for a fair price. That would make the kaZba not so small but maybe a better solution then the vifa 12"?
By the way the ESS AMT is one heavy unit!!! Unfortunatly the plastic cover has a small crack but think it will not effect its performance. Maybe it could be fixed with epoxy or polyester.
By the way the ESS AMT is one heavy unit!!! Unfortunatly the plastic cover has a small crack but think it will not effect its performance. Maybe it could be fixed with epoxy or polyester.
The plastic case is not critical for operation so small cracks can be fixed - the case does hold everything together so as long as magnet and membrane are still in good alignment you are OK. They weight about 12 lbs ea the last time I checked. It's all magnet and perhaps one of the heaviest tweeters made.
Those 18 Sound 15NMB420 are perfect for this. It will sound very very good with them - similar to what CLS did with his huge dual 18in pro audio woofers. You should go for it if it's a good deal.
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/15NMB420.PDF
99dB, 6.5mm xmax, Qts of 0.29, fs of 42Hz - and very smooth response you could cross over at 1500Hz even and have less distortion in the AMT.
Those 18 Sound 15NMB420 are perfect for this. It will sound very very good with them - similar to what CLS did with his huge dual 18in pro audio woofers. You should go for it if it's a good deal.
http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/15NMB420.PDF
99dB, 6.5mm xmax, Qts of 0.29, fs of 42Hz - and very smooth response you could cross over at 1500Hz even and have less distortion in the AMT.
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I use miniDSP and like it - it can do pretty much anything you need. The conversion of stereo to mono would depend on the particular plugin program. There may be one that does it but then may not get you the XO function you need. Are you looking for a way to sum stereo for the subwoofer, which in this case, is the Kazba? If so, the 2.1 plugin will do this:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/plugins/2-way-advanced-21-detail
You can also do the poor man's stereo to mono: take two 4.7k resistors and connect it to a "Y" with L and R on the forks and the summed output at the middle between the two resistors. This assumes you have enough signal from your preamp to drive it. I do this all the time to listen to mono from my laptop or even cell phone headphone out.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/plugins/2-way-advanced-21-detail
You can also do the poor man's stereo to mono: take two 4.7k resistors and connect it to a "Y" with L and R on the forks and the summed output at the middle between the two resistors. This assumes you have enough signal from your preamp to drive it. I do this all the time to listen to mono from my laptop or even cell phone headphone out.
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I'm looking to sum the stereo signal to mono, this is for a one speaker mono system.
There will be just one ess amt tweeter on top of one kazba with dual 15", woofers driven by one channel of the qsc rmx850 and the other channel will drive the ess amt. Been looking for a good mono chip amp (tpa3110 among others) to drive the ess amt but havent found anything yet. Then I would use the qsc in bridged mode on the kaZba.
But I need to sort out the xo options first.
The poor mans stereo to mono seems like a good option for this application.
There will be just one ess amt tweeter on top of one kazba with dual 15", woofers driven by one channel of the qsc rmx850 and the other channel will drive the ess amt. Been looking for a good mono chip amp (tpa3110 among others) to drive the ess amt but havent found anything yet. Then I would use the qsc in bridged mode on the kaZba.
But I need to sort out the xo options first.
The poor mans stereo to mono seems like a good option for this application.
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Take a look at the Sanwu TDA8392 amp to drive the ESS. It only costs $4 but sounds wonderful. With a 19v SMPS it should put out easily 25w which is quite a bit for the Heil AMT (40 max I think). If you want a really good amp, I suggest a good discrete class AB. I have built several really nice sounding ones and could sell them to you for cost of parts and shipping if you are interested. You will need a dual rail power supply though (250VA 24v trafo for 35v rails and 8x 4700uF 50v caps and a bridge rectifier). Send me a PM if you are interested.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TDA8932-35W...no-AMP-High-Power-10-30V-DC-OZ4R/401049849135
Here is FX8 class AB (50w into 8ohms with 35v PSU):
Here is FH9HV (125w into 8ohms with 53v PSU) - this is one of my favorite amps:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TDA8932-35W...no-AMP-High-Power-10-30V-DC-OZ4R/401049849135
Here is FX8 class AB (50w into 8ohms with 35v PSU):
Here is FH9HV (125w into 8ohms with 53v PSU) - this is one of my favorite amps:
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