Hi,I used to have a RD11 many years ago.If I remember well one of the reasons why the platter and pulley would not rotate while motor was rotating,was that the belt had very strong grip on both the pulley and the sub-platter so the clutch was working continuously.Ariston used to supply a small phial of powder with which you had to treat the belt.Try this with some powder(chalk powder will do)and I believe the platter will work ok.Same can be done with Ariston RD40 with AC motor,clutch and square section belt.
atavid..I did glue it...
...with the smallest amount of Loctite "super glue".
As I had made a motor re-location plate (clocking the motor as per the FunkFirm Linn mods), I also modified that to allow an easy adjustment to the belt tension. Once I am satisfied with the results I will provide further details regarding the motor relocation to the sub-chassis---should be suitable for the Linn tables as well.
The clutch operates as you suggested I think, to allow the motor to catch up to the platter, and allow the Inertia of the rotating platter to help maintain speed. This is required because (as far as I understand) Ariston had dropped the AC voltage to the motor to something approaching the 72 Volts for quiet and smooth operation.
A momentary switch could be used to feed 120 Volts (I'm in Canada) directly to the motor, and once up to speed, releasing it would engage the existing circuit. That way start-up torque would become a dead issue.
stew
PS: I did loosen the belt and it now easily turns the platter, even though the platter bearing is quite stiff, so the talc/chalk dust, etc seems to be a good starting point. Perhaps I'll ty to get the clutch back on , but it does seem like it really is a mechanical after-thought to an electrical problem.
...with the smallest amount of Loctite "super glue".
As I had made a motor re-location plate (clocking the motor as per the FunkFirm Linn mods), I also modified that to allow an easy adjustment to the belt tension. Once I am satisfied with the results I will provide further details regarding the motor relocation to the sub-chassis---should be suitable for the Linn tables as well.
The clutch operates as you suggested I think, to allow the motor to catch up to the platter, and allow the Inertia of the rotating platter to help maintain speed. This is required because (as far as I understand) Ariston had dropped the AC voltage to the motor to something approaching the 72 Volts for quiet and smooth operation.
A momentary switch could be used to feed 120 Volts (I'm in Canada) directly to the motor, and once up to speed, releasing it would engage the existing circuit. That way start-up torque would become a dead issue.
stew
PS: I did loosen the belt and it now easily turns the platter, even though the platter bearing is quite stiff, so the talc/chalk dust, etc seems to be a good starting point. Perhaps I'll ty to get the clutch back on , but it does seem like it really is a mechanical after-thought to an electrical problem.
Ariston were actually supplying the talc with all their turntables including the RD80 and later the RD11 Superieur,both of which had more "convensional" pulleys(not V-grooved) and flat belts.With these models,using the talk,suspension wobbling was avoided compared to a "clean/sticky"belt.You might be right that this might have been a mechanical after-thought to an electrical problem,but it seems it is an effective solution too.
Although this problem has been solved for the time on my Ariston,i just recently purchased a new Clearaudio Avantgarde Magnum turntable.I actually got sick of fiddling and farting around with the Aristons suspension and drive mechanism. I went and bought the Clearaudio not only of course because of its sonic qualities, but because it is a non suspended type with a separate motor housing that stands completely apart from the TT .It took me less than 1 hour to assemble it and set up my arm,and voila...beautiful music.Bliss
Although this problem has been solved for the time on my Ariston,i just recently purchased a new Clearaudio Avantgarde Magnum turntable.I actually got sick of fiddling and farting around with the Aristons suspension and drive mechanism. I went and bought the Clearaudio not only of course because of its sonic qualities, but because it is a non suspended type with a separate motor housing that stands completely apart from the TT .It took me less than 1 hour to assemble it and set up my arm,and voila...beautiful music.Bliss
atavid, a Clearaudio is missing the point...
..of modifying old tables.
Remember what the Ariston is for what it is (particularly a massaged one) and capable of, LP12 type performance at a fraction of the cost (from one of the "originators"). And you can afford to experiment. Would I use one of these as a primary turntable? Not while I was modifying it, but once everything that I would like to see done has been done, then yes.
Are new "plug-n-play" types like the Clearaudio easier? Of course. And older high mass plinth types (Garrard, Thorens, Lenco, etc), with newer arms could qualify as well. And the Teres, etc. Personally I enjoy polishing " 'terds". The end result may not be that different from an LP12, but at the pennies on the dollar price point, there is some appeal.
The table I am working on is not mine, but a friend of a friend's. It was "in storage" for several years and has needed a fair bit of work just to get it turning again. It is one of the earlier types, and not an "S" but a regular RD11. The bearing was knackered, I had new inserts put in. As you pointed out, every time the sub-platter is removed and replaced, the drag on the bearing is significant.
I will be trying talc or corn starch on the belt, and also adjusting the tension on the belt. If it all seems to work out, I'll be very pleased (it should).
stew
..of modifying old tables.
Remember what the Ariston is for what it is (particularly a massaged one) and capable of, LP12 type performance at a fraction of the cost (from one of the "originators"). And you can afford to experiment. Would I use one of these as a primary turntable? Not while I was modifying it, but once everything that I would like to see done has been done, then yes.
Are new "plug-n-play" types like the Clearaudio easier? Of course. And older high mass plinth types (Garrard, Thorens, Lenco, etc), with newer arms could qualify as well. And the Teres, etc. Personally I enjoy polishing " 'terds". The end result may not be that different from an LP12, but at the pennies on the dollar price point, there is some appeal.
The table I am working on is not mine, but a friend of a friend's. It was "in storage" for several years and has needed a fair bit of work just to get it turning again. It is one of the earlier types, and not an "S" but a regular RD11. The bearing was knackered, I had new inserts put in. As you pointed out, every time the sub-platter is removed and replaced, the drag on the bearing is significant.
I will be trying talc or corn starch on the belt, and also adjusting the tension on the belt. If it all seems to work out, I'll be very pleased (it should).
stew
Nanook,i havnt missed your point.I appreciate all the effort and trouble you are going to with the RD11,having gone through it all myself in the last 12 months.Yes the effort yields great results at a quite affordable cost,but for me the challenge was in achieving the best the old Ariston was capable of.Like you, i enjoy 'polishing old terds',but having eeked the best out of my Ariston i still was left wanting.I know it has reached the limits of its capabilities.
Im still very curious to see some pics when you get a chance,as for that bearing drag problem i wish i knew some way to eliminate that without compromising the 'fit' of the spindle to sleeve.I was just looking more closely at mine and notice that the plastic sleeve material is in fact very rough,exactly as you would imagine soft plastic to look if someone had rubbed it with coarse sandpaper.Perhaps this is the way its always been and ive not noticed it, or mabye over the years its gone this way from wear and tear.Thats why i was curious to hear what kind of material you used to resleeve your bearing.Finally did you get that motor with the fixed pulley to work.Another realisation ive had after youve just pointed it out, is that the RD11 used a similiar pulley to the Linn with a flat belt.Is that correct?Perhaps the glued pulley will work better with this type of pulley and belt than the square section belt and v groove pulley on the RD11S.
Im still very curious to see some pics when you get a chance,as for that bearing drag problem i wish i knew some way to eliminate that without compromising the 'fit' of the spindle to sleeve.I was just looking more closely at mine and notice that the plastic sleeve material is in fact very rough,exactly as you would imagine soft plastic to look if someone had rubbed it with coarse sandpaper.Perhaps this is the way its always been and ive not noticed it, or mabye over the years its gone this way from wear and tear.Thats why i was curious to hear what kind of material you used to resleeve your bearing.Finally did you get that motor with the fixed pulley to work.Another realisation ive had after youve just pointed it out, is that the RD11 used a similiar pulley to the Linn with a flat belt.Is that correct?Perhaps the glued pulley will work better with this type of pulley and belt than the square section belt and v groove pulley on the RD11S.
the pulleys and things...
I did manage to glue the pulley successfully using Loctite "super glue", and the brass motor shaft extension (it was allowing the motor to spin faster than the pulley when presented with the load of the platter). The clutch is an interesting feature , but I am unsure of its real utility. The belt is a V-type. I have used corn starch on the belt to remove moisture and oils from handling the belt.
The only way I can see to improve the fit of the bearing is to use Teflon or other PTFE (not any nylon of any sort) as the insert material or a sintered bronze bushing (Oilite type). The basic shaft, housing and ball bearing are fine.
I think I may have the "reclocking" motor mount figured out. I end up with a centre to centre measurement of 109mm from the main bearing to the motor shaft (based on calculations). Once this is completed and I am satisfied, I will put it all back together and have a quick listen, and check the speed with my laser tachometer.
I am a little unsure of the measurements in comparison to the Linn LP12. Once I am convinced of that, then I may try a new sub-chassis, either aluminium/BB or carbon fibre, and BB.
Pictures will follow upon successful implementation.
stew
I did manage to glue the pulley successfully using Loctite "super glue", and the brass motor shaft extension (it was allowing the motor to spin faster than the pulley when presented with the load of the platter). The clutch is an interesting feature , but I am unsure of its real utility. The belt is a V-type. I have used corn starch on the belt to remove moisture and oils from handling the belt.
The only way I can see to improve the fit of the bearing is to use Teflon or other PTFE (not any nylon of any sort) as the insert material or a sintered bronze bushing (Oilite type). The basic shaft, housing and ball bearing are fine.
I think I may have the "reclocking" motor mount figured out. I end up with a centre to centre measurement of 109mm from the main bearing to the motor shaft (based on calculations). Once this is completed and I am satisfied, I will put it all back together and have a quick listen, and check the speed with my laser tachometer.
I am a little unsure of the measurements in comparison to the Linn LP12. Once I am convinced of that, then I may try a new sub-chassis, either aluminium/BB or carbon fibre, and BB.
Pictures will follow upon successful implementation.
stew
Nanook ,now im really curious to see your RD11.I was under the impression that these(RD11) close predecessors of the Linn all had the aluminium pulley and guide with a flat belt, similiar if not identical to the LP12 .I thought the square section belt and v groove pulleys came later with the RD11S.You say your belt is a V type,do you mean it is square,but makes contact on two faces, eg forming a "V'.
Your comment about PTFE reminded me of something in my Ariston RD11S owners manual .Ive scanned it in but unfortunately the shop i bought it from highlighted these sections and it may not be readable after scanning.This is what it says:"After a period of usage the Ptfe from the shell bearings will transfer on to the spindle. Do not under any circumstances clean that Ptfe off the spindle".
So it seems that the bearings are in fact Ptfe,and not a nylon or other material.This might explain why it takes some time for the friction to decrease,and hence why a run in time is necessary.
Your comment about PTFE reminded me of something in my Ariston RD11S owners manual .Ive scanned it in but unfortunately the shop i bought it from highlighted these sections and it may not be readable after scanning.This is what it says:"After a period of usage the Ptfe from the shell bearings will transfer on to the spindle. Do not under any circumstances clean that Ptfe off the spindle".
So it seems that the bearings are in fact Ptfe,and not a nylon or other material.This might explain why it takes some time for the friction to decrease,and hence why a run in time is necessary.
atavid...the saga continues
I will take a few photos shortly. So far I can't get the motor to spin both the inner and outer platters. I did a resistance check. Apparently these Airpax motors (or Premotec ones) have a R=8.8kΩ, and Inductance=10H.
On one winding (the red one), R>1.9 MΩ, while the blue one is 4.4kΩ (I'm assuming that the 8.8kΩ is the total resistance added). So it looks like DC motor or an new AC type...
The more I work on this, the more there seems to be larger problems than first thought. I can remove the motor shaft extension and get a motor to fit it and run at the 300 rpm that is required...So maybe the clutch wasn't the problem...
The easiest check would be to get an AC motor and use a large power amp driven by a 60Hz tone to power the thing. If it gets up to speed, then obviously that is the problem.
stew
I will take a few photos shortly. So far I can't get the motor to spin both the inner and outer platters. I did a resistance check. Apparently these Airpax motors (or Premotec ones) have a R=8.8kΩ, and Inductance=10H.
On one winding (the red one), R>1.9 MΩ, while the blue one is 4.4kΩ (I'm assuming that the 8.8kΩ is the total resistance added). So it looks like DC motor or an new AC type...
The more I work on this, the more there seems to be larger problems than first thought. I can remove the motor shaft extension and get a motor to fit it and run at the 300 rpm that is required...So maybe the clutch wasn't the problem...
The easiest check would be to get an AC motor and use a large power amp driven by a 60Hz tone to power the thing. If it gets up to speed, then obviously that is the problem.
stew
"So far I can't get the motor to spin both the inner and outer platters. "
Nanook,thats exactly the problem i was referring to when you glue the pulley to the shaft.For some reason i just dont really get,the motor just wont turn the platter when asked to do so directly.Obviously these motors are relatively low torque,i suppose to reduce effects from using higher voltages.
I mistakedly thought that my original motor was faulty, and that a new Linn replacement motor would eliminate the problem...it didnt...it was exactly the same.
Going for a DC motor, say, from Origin would probably be the way i would go if i was to do it all over again.
Nanook,thats exactly the problem i was referring to when you glue the pulley to the shaft.For some reason i just dont really get,the motor just wont turn the platter when asked to do so directly.Obviously these motors are relatively low torque,i suppose to reduce effects from using higher voltages.
I mistakedly thought that my original motor was faulty, and that a new Linn replacement motor would eliminate the problem...it didnt...it was exactly the same.
Going for a DC motor, say, from Origin would probably be the way i would go if i was to do it all over again.
Brand new member!! I must admit that I am not at all a DIYer. Quite frankly I wouldn't know which end of a screwdriver to use to secure a screw. I found this thread by Googling. I am hoping that I can get some opinions about the following:
I own an Ariston RD11s. I bought it new in 1978.
Here is what has been done to the unit:
RB300 arm with Origin Live rewire and counterweight.
Origin Live outboard DC Motor.
Cart: Sumiko Blackbird.
No mods have been done to the chassis, except that the oil was changed last year.
Here is my dilemna - Whenever I go into any of the Highend Audio shops and mention that I am using a 30 year old table, the first words are that I must trash it and buy something new (read expensive!) Obviously, store owners are biased and want to make a new sale.
All of my fellow Audio friends tell me the same thing.
I realize that manufacturing tolerances and engineering have most definitely evolved since 1978, but my main question is:
Is my Ariston still relevent in today's audio world or would a brand new table and arm be far superior.
I know that many of the DIY members are very skilled engineers and some opinions and direction from you will mean much more to me than the opinion of a store salesperson.
Thank you in advance
I own an Ariston RD11s. I bought it new in 1978.
Here is what has been done to the unit:
RB300 arm with Origin Live rewire and counterweight.
Origin Live outboard DC Motor.
Cart: Sumiko Blackbird.
No mods have been done to the chassis, except that the oil was changed last year.
Here is my dilemna - Whenever I go into any of the Highend Audio shops and mention that I am using a 30 year old table, the first words are that I must trash it and buy something new (read expensive!) Obviously, store owners are biased and want to make a new sale.
All of my fellow Audio friends tell me the same thing.
I realize that manufacturing tolerances and engineering have most definitely evolved since 1978, but my main question is:
Is my Ariston still relevent in today's audio world or would a brand new table and arm be far superior.
I know that many of the DIY members are very skilled engineers and some opinions and direction from you will mean much more to me than the opinion of a store salesperson.
Thank you in advance
Yes you can do better,BUT, it will take a LOT more money to do it.The RD11S is still a very musical performer capable of ecking out great resolution from vinyl.I would imagine with the mods on your deck that it is(or is capable of) delivering great performances.If its not, then it may just need the suspension centered and set up correctly.As ive said before,the RD11S is a pig to set up, but once done correctly its musical abilities are up there with the best of them, especially with a few of the right mods.Forget what the salesmen are telling you..its a load of rubbish, based, in my experience, on the sales persons lack of experience with this or other early decks.I have a very expensive modern superdeck AND a modded RD11S, and while the RD11S isnt the last word in imaging,soundstage and detail compared to my other deck it still none the less does not embarrass itself and manges to comfortably hold its own.
So yep, the RD11S is still relevant.
So yep, the RD11S is still relevant.
Spirit84 said:
Don't listen to them. Most salespeople these days wouldn't know what a good table sounds like, and probably don't care. They just want to make a sale.
Sounds like they are still under the spell of upgradeitous. What tables do your friends own?
Yes, just as relevant as an LP12, which is still on the market.
Jeff
only thirty one years old and outdated?
tell all the Garrard folks (and Thorens and Empire and Lenco folks) that! Age has little to do whether something is good or not. Service? Yes! But a well serviced, good old table can make great music. And with a little bit of help can be quite remarkable.
I'd love to know what all your buddies have as a reference. The Ariston was/is a well designed and well built table that can easily stand a number of performance improvements without breaking the bank. Even in completely stock condition, it is very nice to listen to.
tell all the Garrard folks (and Thorens and Empire and Lenco folks) that! Age has little to do whether something is good or not. Service? Yes! But a well serviced, good old table can make great music. And with a little bit of help can be quite remarkable.
I'd love to know what all your buddies have as a reference. The Ariston was/is a well designed and well built table that can easily stand a number of performance improvements without breaking the bank. Even in completely stock condition, it is very nice to listen to.
atavid said:
Hi atavid
Your awesome work is very inpirational.
After adding a geddon PSU and a special Salas riaa to my system, I believe I must look close to the TT.
After reading your posts, I believe the "bolt mod" is intended to secure the top plate and minimize it´s vibrations right ?
Also, can you please point me a good reading about the motor relocation ?
Regards
Ricardo
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