Hi everyone. It's been quite a while since I visited the thread.
I'm wondering if there's a way to replace my step pulley with one from Audiosilente since mine is a mk II version.
Also, regarding noise transfering from the chassis to the armboard, I would suggest drilling a few holes on the board and screwing long bolts to the plinth (for those using high mass solid plinths). It creates paths to sink vibrations!! Heck, I would even do the same thing to the chassis to make it even more silent!
I'm wondering if there's a way to replace my step pulley with one from Audiosilente since mine is a mk II version.
Also, regarding noise transfering from the chassis to the armboard, I would suggest drilling a few holes on the board and screwing long bolts to the plinth (for those using high mass solid plinths). It creates paths to sink vibrations!! Heck, I would even do the same thing to the chassis to make it even more silent!
It's been a while since I've read or posted here but I see that not a lot has been added since then.
last week I had the opportunity to evaluate a Retrotone TD124 Top Platter Upgrade on two different TD124's. Mine, which is a mk1 and another which was a mkII. For those who haven't seen the ads for this, the Retrotone top platter is machined from a solid piece of aluminum and is meant to replace the oem Thorens unit which also is of aluminum but is is pressed into shape via sheet metal techniques. I wrote a review of it which can be found at my website at this link:
https://www.theanalogdept.com/retrotone.htm
For those who currently have a TD124 or those who might be thinking of getting one.
-Steve
last week I had the opportunity to evaluate a Retrotone TD124 Top Platter Upgrade on two different TD124's. Mine, which is a mk1 and another which was a mkII. For those who haven't seen the ads for this, the Retrotone top platter is machined from a solid piece of aluminum and is meant to replace the oem Thorens unit which also is of aluminum but is is pressed into shape via sheet metal techniques. I wrote a review of it which can be found at my website at this link:
https://www.theanalogdept.com/retrotone.htm
For those who currently have a TD124 or those who might be thinking of getting one.
-Steve
I haven't read your review yet but I have one on my 124 and along with the Woodsong center bearing it works spectacularly! I also used their cork intermediate mat as well as a Herbies way better mat in a thick size for thin records and a thinner one for thicker records.
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Greetings again!
I've been measuring wow using my phone app (not the best option I know) at two different times of the day. One at 1:30pm. (Peak hour, dirty electricity) and 12:30am (cleaner power) over 2 or 3 days.
Pretty consistent results:
1:30pm
0.09% 0.10% 0.9% 0.09% 0.11% 0.10% 0.05% 0.07% 0.10% 0.10% 0.12% 0.10% 0.12% 0.08% 0.05% 0.09% 0.07% 0.10%
12:30am
0.04% 0.08% 0.06% 0.04% 0.08% 0.03% 0.05% 0.05% 0.09% 0.03% 0.07% 0.08% 0.08% 0.06% 0.04% 0.05% 0.03%
The table runs more stable at night. I wonder how much better measurements one could get with a Hanze power supply hmm..
Which brings me to another question:
Would a new capacitor replacement improve the timing in my Thorens also? Mine is old and leaky.
I've been measuring wow using my phone app (not the best option I know) at two different times of the day. One at 1:30pm. (Peak hour, dirty electricity) and 12:30am (cleaner power) over 2 or 3 days.
Pretty consistent results:
1:30pm
0.09% 0.10% 0.9% 0.09% 0.11% 0.10% 0.05% 0.07% 0.10% 0.10% 0.12% 0.10% 0.12% 0.08% 0.05% 0.09% 0.07% 0.10%
12:30am
0.04% 0.08% 0.06% 0.04% 0.08% 0.03% 0.05% 0.05% 0.09% 0.03% 0.07% 0.08% 0.08% 0.06% 0.04% 0.05% 0.03%
The table runs more stable at night. I wonder how much better measurements one could get with a Hanze power supply hmm..
Which brings me to another question:
Would a new capacitor replacement improve the timing in my Thorens also? Mine is old and leaky.
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Hi Kevin, good to hear from you again.
Will replace the capacitor then. Motor has been overhalued and aligned, running like a swiss watch.
)
Anyway take a look at this picture.
I'm not sure how precise the gyroscope in my phone is but the Thorens seems to measure much better than the 400k OMA and the 500k TechDAS TT in terms of speed variation. Wow also in the same ballpark. You can see the graphs on the Stereophile reviews.
Am I missing something here?
(PS: I know this is one of the better measurements but i'm expecting this consistent kind of performance once I feed it with the proper undistorted AC)
Will replace the capacitor then. Motor has been overhalued and aligned, running like a swiss watch.
)Anyway take a look at this picture.
I'm not sure how precise the gyroscope in my phone is but the Thorens seems to measure much better than the 400k OMA and the 500k TechDAS TT in terms of speed variation. Wow also in the same ballpark. You can see the graphs on the Stereophile reviews.
Am I missing something here?
(PS: I know this is one of the better measurements but i'm expecting this consistent kind of performance once I feed it with the proper undistorted AC)
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Hi Bruno,Hi Kevin, good to hear from you again.
Will replace the capacitor then. Motor has been overhalued and aligned, running like a swiss watch.
Anyway take a look at this picture.
I'm not sure how precise the gyroscope in my phone is but the Thorens seems to measure much better than the 400k OMA and the 500k TechDAS TT in terms of speed variation. Wow also in the same ballpark. You can see the graphs on the Stereophile reviews.
Am I missing something here?
(PS: I know this is one of the better measurements but i'm expecting this consistent kind of performance once I feed it with the proper undistorted AC)
I would be interested to know how you use the gyroscope in your telephone.
sincerely,
Ralf
Hi Ralf,
It's an app called "RPM Speed and Wow". That's the one i'm using but there are many more. You need to place your phone on the platter.
Not with the Thorens. Thorens is strong. Thorens don't even care 😎
But yeah that would be the correct way to do it.
Currently using 3 in 1 motor oil (sae 20) on the platter bearing. I'd like to switch to a more viscous formula. Reason is I want to create a little more "hydro resistance" so I can back off the noisy eddy current brake and see if I can improve stability even further.
Any suggestions for different oil??
Thanks!!
Any suggestions for different oil??
Thanks!!
Maybe this problem is related to my tt only but.. In case you want to try out for yourself you can remove the platter and place your ear close to the step pulley. Listen closely with with the eddy on the "off" position and then turn the eddy dial to the max to apply maximum breaking force. maybe you hear an increase in audible noise.
I guess I could do that but since I only listen to that TT with the platter on and can't hear a change in noise level moving the eddy brake in that configuration, I'll not chase that particular devil. You could try a little grease such as Lubriplate on the main bearing shaft to add some drag.
I see discussion regarding platter speed accuracy, noise levels at the stepped pulley and the possibility of using different lubes at different points. What I can offer in response is info available in the TD124 owner's manual and service manual for starters.
Lube: the owner's manual offers more info on lube type than does the service manual (go figure). It lists two different types of lube: Texaco ROB and Texaco ROG. ROB is a general purpose circulating/turbine oil with a straight viscosity in ISO of 46 or in SAE of 20wt. This is recommended for use in the motor bushings and also the main platter bearing.
ROG is a more viscous lube with an SAE 50wt viscosity. It is recommended for use at the stepped pulley and the idler wheel axle and thrust.
One thing to keep in mind is that whichever oil you use, it should be compatible with porous bronze bushings. Additives such as teflon flakes tend to clog the porosity of these porous bronze bushings. (also known as Oilite bushings)
re: speed accuracy and consistency. To keep in mind is that we are dealing with a design that comes out of the 1950's. In Joachim Bung's book "Swiss Precision" 2nd ed. I found a page that explains a factory bulletin #212 published by Thorens in 1959. The in-house measurements reported a wow and flutter of 0.10% wow and 0.07% flutter per NARTB std 1.11. Per NARTB std. 1.12 rumble (unweighted) was reported at -38dB.
The idea I take from this is that we can do some things to enhance or improve the performance - yet - the hardware in that machine comes out of the 1950s. Personally I wouldn't be too concerned about obtaining an absolutely accurate 33-1/3rd rpm figure while using a cell-phone tachometer app that spins the phone on your platter. Better off just looking at the strobe, btw.
re: rumble rises and lowers with the application of the eddy brake. Perhaps the bushings in the stepped pulley are getting a bit loose? What lube do you have in there? Apart from that, yes, the eddy brake regulates motor rpm by inducing drag at the belt/stepped pulley interface. Greater drag means greater application of force which likely causes some noise level increase at the stepped pulley/idler wheel area.
For a while I spent some time listening to and comparing a Technics SP10 mkII against one of my TD124 players. Differences were distinct. The TD124 had a bit more slam. The SP10 mkII had a sense of spot-on accuracy of speed. A sense of certainty of pace where the Thorens, while still very enjoyable had a sense of floatation. The SP10mkII was very good at the articulation of fine detail, while the same passages reproduced by the TD124 gave less definition while still offering an enjoyable presentation. At one point I needed to downsize and I had to choose between keeping a TD124 or the SP10mkII. I sold the Technics. Your choice might be different than mine.
-Steve
Lube: the owner's manual offers more info on lube type than does the service manual (go figure). It lists two different types of lube: Texaco ROB and Texaco ROG. ROB is a general purpose circulating/turbine oil with a straight viscosity in ISO of 46 or in SAE of 20wt. This is recommended for use in the motor bushings and also the main platter bearing.
ROG is a more viscous lube with an SAE 50wt viscosity. It is recommended for use at the stepped pulley and the idler wheel axle and thrust.
One thing to keep in mind is that whichever oil you use, it should be compatible with porous bronze bushings. Additives such as teflon flakes tend to clog the porosity of these porous bronze bushings. (also known as Oilite bushings)
re: speed accuracy and consistency. To keep in mind is that we are dealing with a design that comes out of the 1950's. In Joachim Bung's book "Swiss Precision" 2nd ed. I found a page that explains a factory bulletin #212 published by Thorens in 1959. The in-house measurements reported a wow and flutter of 0.10% wow and 0.07% flutter per NARTB std 1.11. Per NARTB std. 1.12 rumble (unweighted) was reported at -38dB.
The idea I take from this is that we can do some things to enhance or improve the performance - yet - the hardware in that machine comes out of the 1950s. Personally I wouldn't be too concerned about obtaining an absolutely accurate 33-1/3rd rpm figure while using a cell-phone tachometer app that spins the phone on your platter. Better off just looking at the strobe, btw.
re: rumble rises and lowers with the application of the eddy brake. Perhaps the bushings in the stepped pulley are getting a bit loose? What lube do you have in there? Apart from that, yes, the eddy brake regulates motor rpm by inducing drag at the belt/stepped pulley interface. Greater drag means greater application of force which likely causes some noise level increase at the stepped pulley/idler wheel area.
For a while I spent some time listening to and comparing a Technics SP10 mkII against one of my TD124 players. Differences were distinct. The TD124 had a bit more slam. The SP10 mkII had a sense of spot-on accuracy of speed. A sense of certainty of pace where the Thorens, while still very enjoyable had a sense of floatation. The SP10mkII was very good at the articulation of fine detail, while the same passages reproduced by the TD124 gave less definition while still offering an enjoyable presentation. At one point I needed to downsize and I had to choose between keeping a TD124 or the SP10mkII. I sold the Technics. Your choice might be different than mine.
-Steve
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