Where and how will you store all the gas?
It'll make about 2,200 cubic feet of highly explosive gas mixture from 11 gallons of water.
I'm quite glad you live half a planet away.
I wouldn't want my next door neighbour building a machine that used thousands of amps to produce massive quantities of explosives gasses while making a 150+ decibel noise.
this is the funniest thread i've ever read on this forum
I was googling the RF of water and found this rather long-lived thread.
I'm not a scientist. From reading this thread, it's obvious to me that Sy - you know what you're talking about, I do have a background in electronics, but am mainly a mechanic.
Actually I'm an artist, but that doesn't pay any bills.
I have messed around with electrolysis and it absolutely will release hydrogen and oxygen in great enough quantities to run a vehicle and, a vehicle can certainly produce enough amps/volts to run the electrolysis. Putting an extra alternator on a car is a matter of about a half an hour, (pull off the ac, and mount in place of) and putting on two (if necessary) is a matter of making some new brackets. I can buy a high-output (140 amp) alternator for about $160 here and the same company makes them up to 320 amps for audio buffs (as I assume are all over this site)
The main problem I see (I have yet to go with a full scale test as I don't have the funds just yet) is that hydrogen / oxygen burns much hotter than fuel and you will melt your valve train. My plan is to sacrifice a $200 or $300 car as proof of concept and then possibly try and track down a used Mazda rotary engine such as an old RX7 as they naturally run cooler and are designed in a way that makes them far less vulnerable to the high temps.
If there is something I am missing here, I haven't seen it in this thread, but I am all ears.
You're missing the Second Law of Thermodynamics. You will always have to put more energy into the electrolytic cracking of water than you'll get out by burning the resulting hydrogen and oxygen. This is a stunningly inefficient process.
TANSTAAFL.
The low frequency of around 50Hz travels the farthest in sea. Look for Herd island experiment or ask some physical oceanographer.
In underwater seismics, there is a sound source consisting of a spark array which connects the HV of 3.2 KV through an SCR and this disintegrates the water molecules into H and O2, forms an explosive bubble which collapses to form water. But all this is short duration.
I don't know how it will be useful for u.
Gajanan Phadte
In underwater seismics, there is a sound source consisting of a spark array which connects the HV of 3.2 KV through an SCR and this disintegrates the water molecules into H and O2, forms an explosive bubble which collapses to form water. But all this is short duration.
I don't know how it will be useful for u.
Gajanan Phadte
Thats what they said about FTL travel, now we have a plausible theory as to how to get around it by using waves, problem is that for now it destroys the solar system of your destination upon your arrival, major drag....
Besides Its been done before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apj4QSN8XQY
Young Einstein: Beer - YouTube
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No, I get that. The whole "there is no free lunch" thing. Then again, an internal combustion engine is a stunningly inefficient machine in the first place.
I admit I am coming at this from more of an intuitive than mathematical angle, but it seems to me that it matters what kind of energy you are converting into. From mechanical to electrical and then back - in this case and alternator drag on an engine is negligible.
Obviously there will be loss at both points of conversion as well as several points through the system and this is unavoidable. My thought is, however, that you can crack enough gas to run the engine. The issue then becomes, who long can you keep this going before the output overwhelms the input?
There is no perpetual motion, and I'm not looking for that, I'm just wondering if the system can be kept going long enough to make it practical.
Until I actually do some tests to an actual vehicle I'm not willing to commit to anything.
TANSTAAFL?
Throw enough energy at it and you can get something to run. Problem is that somewhere along the line, the energy has to be generated... If it takes a ton of coal burning to get you a couple of liters of hydrogen, what have you accomplished?
As with accounting, you can't avoid the math here.
As with accounting, you can't avoid the math here.
I have only just seen this thread. It makes certain other threads seem quite sane by comparison. One question: if the mods won't let us electrocute ourselves, why allow the original thread to run so that someone could blow up his whole street? Did you just assume that he would never actually do anything?
PS I used to work in the power industry. They use hydrogen (for cooling alternators). They are very careful about production and storage of hydrogen. For example, the roof over a hydrogen store is pitched the 'wrong' way so any escapes can't gather in the apex and then blow the roof off. That makes me cautious about hydrogen. I assume the OP has not had his roof inverted to avoid this problem?
PS I used to work in the power industry. They use hydrogen (for cooling alternators). They are very careful about production and storage of hydrogen. For example, the roof over a hydrogen store is pitched the 'wrong' way so any escapes can't gather in the apex and then blow the roof off. That makes me cautious about hydrogen. I assume the OP has not had his roof inverted to avoid this problem?
That would depend on how much I paid for the coal.
There is no “free energy” but there is abundant 'free for me' energy. I look at this in terms of cost-benefit.
For example, the Sun heats the Earth for “free”. However, we know that the Earth only receives a small amount of the total energy the Sun produces. Labor that analogy enough and we can determine that even if solar panels become many times more efficient than they are now, solar power would always be the least efficient energy system ever devised in terms of output vs. energy recaptured.
Obviously, though, that argument is academic.
I'm not looking for more scientific efficiency than is necessary. I'm looking for real world economy here.
Not that I'm certain that I can even make it work.
***
Along the same lines, I have been pondering the energy production market as a whole. We know you can never get more energy out of a source than you put in. We dig for coal, drill for oil, and run nuclear facilities to produce reactor materials with the energy derived from burning coal, oil, and heating water with nuclear reactors. Without even considering every other market these sources of energy provide for. According to the law of diminishing returns, the whole thing seems long overdue to implode.
But it isn't just academic when taken the other direction...
... which seems to be sadly overlooked here.
No, you didn't get it.
Yes, I did get it.
The question is whether or not the alternator(s) can put out sufficient electrical energy for electrolysis compared to the drag they impart on the engine. The energy required to run the engine is different from the energy required for electrolysis, which is different from the energy which can be extracted from the HHO gas.
I've seen enough conflicting math on this to simply decide to perform some practical tests. At some point you have to put the pencil down and try making something.
I don't claim it's going to work.
The energy required to run the engine is much greater than the energy required for electrolysis, which is much greater than the energy which can be extracted from the HHO gas.The Him said:
Using a petrol driven IC engine to generate electricity for electrolysis must be about the most expensive way to do it, and quite inefficient. In many cases the alternator is belt-driven, which introduces friction losses too. For hydrogen to be a viable fuel you really need virtually free electricity to start from.
Where is the 'conflicting math'? The 2nd Law is fairly simple to state and understand. Every time you convert energy you lose some. It is only worth doing if you gain some other benefit, such as conversion to a more energy-dense fuel for transport. Petrol cars do not tow a refinery behind them. Similarly, hydrogen cars should not carry a hydrogen generator and the fuel to run it. A possible exception might be solar PV on the roof, then the energy input is delivered to you.
Exactly!
My friend George, who lives in his truck on Maui, was all keen to make an electrolysis unit and pipe it into his engine for the mileage boost. He wanted me to help. I kept telling him that it was a net loss, it takes more gasoline to run the alternator to crack the water than he would get back.
But, he pointed out, he has several large solar cells on top of the truck that supply more than enough electricity for his needs (computer, TV, lights, microwave oven, etc). So in essence, the power to crack the water was "free".
I still declined to help because I didn't want to see my buddy explode.
My friend George, who lives in his truck on Maui, was all keen to make an electrolysis unit and pipe it into his engine for the mileage boost. He wanted me to help. I kept telling him that it was a net loss, it takes more gasoline to run the alternator to crack the water than he would get back.
But, he pointed out, he has several large solar cells on top of the truck that supply more than enough electricity for his needs (computer, TV, lights, microwave oven, etc). So in essence, the power to crack the water was "free".
I still declined to help because I didn't want to see my buddy explode.
unlikely to get more than a few hundred W from even truck/van rooftop solar - and the "best" use efficiency wize would be to use it to run anything electrical on the engine/in the vehicle and remove corresponding alternator load on the engine
would one incur legal liability by supplying a webcam to suspected Darwin Award candidates in hopes of actually capturing "evolution in action"?
would one incur legal liability by supplying a webcam to suspected Darwin Award candidates in hopes of actually capturing "evolution in action"?
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