No, it seems clear to me from the wild guesswork that you do want to tinker with the amplifier regardless. I think though, you need to search accurate information before making prognostications and talking up a need for replacing components where there isn't one or any problem is more likely associated with external features - perhaps the Quadlink which seems to have become a popular punching bag for bored 909 owners
No Mr Finch, actually it's giving me a headache.
The 909 sounds flat and boring, and it sounds that way because of some of the poor quality caps. I will change some basic caps over, and while i'm at it i'm considering what else i could do. If the amp already sounded great there's no way i would touch it. I think some of you guys have it in your head that the 909 is the best thing sliced bread, and it aint. Go and listen to Naim gear and then compared it with the 909, there's no comparison. Like i said before, the 909 is a unique design, but the final sound is let down buy some low quality components.
And "Mr crancky" and "basi", i don't need your sarcastic and negative remarks. I don't s*^% on your posts so try and have some decency.
And oh yeah, "finch", i don't need your sarcastic remarks either.
The 909 sounds flat and boring, and it sounds that way because of some of the poor quality caps. I will change some basic caps over, and while i'm at it i'm considering what else i could do. If the amp already sounded great there's no way i would touch it. I think some of you guys have it in your head that the 909 is the best thing sliced bread, and it aint. Go and listen to Naim gear and then compared it with the 909, there's no comparison. Like i said before, the 909 is a unique design, but the final sound is let down buy some low quality components.
And "Mr crancky" and "basi", i don't need your sarcastic and negative remarks. I don't s*^% on your posts so try and have some decency.
And oh yeah, "finch", i don't need your sarcastic remarks either.
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Perhaps english isn't your first language but in any case, I ask you to respect that my remarks and suggestions were not sarcastic, just obvious conclusions from the very few facts presented and years of experience listening to people with the same ideas and suspicions about their audio equipment, whatever the quality, price or truth of the matter is.
The point I made was that you had already decided that because the sound quality is boring it must be due to cheap components - without evidence or citing where that information comes from. So it's guessing, isn't it. Before getting into difficulties and risking damage, why not read this summary from Dada on what their repair approach, supported with proper measurements, did to resolve a sound quality issue with a new 909 Quad - see Quad Spot, August 2010. Quad Spot: August 2010
The point I made was that you had already decided that because the sound quality is boring it must be due to cheap components - without evidence or citing where that information comes from. So it's guessing, isn't it. Before getting into difficulties and risking damage, why not read this summary from Dada on what their repair approach, supported with proper measurements, did to resolve a sound quality issue with a new 909 Quad - see Quad Spot, August 2010. Quad Spot: August 2010
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I am somewhat perplexed that there is so many people who think that changing couple of caps and opamps in factory made gear will "greatly improve the sound" and "bring it to another level". Thing just don't work that way and changing factory fit components with something more expensive and fancy much too often lead to a new headache and frustration.
We've seen it all before.
Someone comes along.
They know everything yet can't do their own research as to what certain parts actually do.
Yet they know the original designer didn't do it right and it can be 'fixed' for $5.
So they make a post exposing their limitations in 2 sentences or less.
Then when people with decades of experience try to help them.
They get all pissy because they weren't told exactly what parts to change in this so called sub par unit to turn it into the greatest device ever built.
But please by all means, completely ignore and offend those that have replied because you know better than people that have spent more time designing and repairing electronics than you've been sucking oxygen.
Some of these people have started, owned, worked for, consulted for global companies that turn over billions of dollars.
I agree with you that these idiots know absolutely nothing and have learn't even less over the decades they've spent designing award winning devices.
By the way, THAT was sarcasm.
Hey, heres a question for you.
What tools and test equipment do you own ?
And heres a final solution for you.
Before you butcher and destroy something you don't like, why not sell it and go buy one of the units that you believe is so superior.
Agreed - there is a very good reason for this if we find Naim or similarly tweaked high-end amplifier products to sound better. In fact, I wouldn't expect many audiophiles to appreciate Quad sound all that much.
Quad solid-state amplifiers may be a unique, current dumping design but they are still a straight, clean sounding amplifier with low distortion and little scope for a newbie to change that without screwing up correct operation. They have no added distortion tweaks or enhancements whereas Naim and many audiophile designs produced in small numbers, often have intentional mechanisms for producing distortion with emphasis on the low harmonics and the 2nd in particular. It's not to everyone's taste though and any distortion enhancement technique applied to a basic amplifier will be questioned and despised by the established engineering fraternity.
So what, we say? Fine, but let's be informed, certain of what we are trying to achieve and not just assume that having swapped something, anything at all, that it will bring relief to a perceived problem. At this point, I'd like to know the product history - Is it new, bought some time back but never satisfactory, was good but deteriorated, a recent Ebay type purchase or inherited perhaps?
Rude, and uncivil.
Toward a person that has not been a member,
for even a month.
Everyone has moments,
yet most replies thus far are not in line ,
with this forums stated goals.
Ian, if you say you didn’t intend any sarcasm I’m happy to take you at your word and I can see now you’re trying to help, but allow me to explain where I was coming from.
Your post was following “two” prior posts that were clearly negative and sarcastic in nature, and your opening sentence was in disagreement with something I had stated previously. In that context, it felt like the third of a string of unkind quotes in a row from different people (the worst one being from mr stinky or whatever he calls himself), and it didn’t make me feel very welcome here.
Now I would like to address mr stinky/cranky or whatever he calls himself. I never got “pissy” with anyone for offering advice, I simply took offence at the negative remarks posted that had nothing at all to do with the subject matter. I’m a new member here asking for some advice, sarcasm and unkind words are completely uncalled for and do nothing except reveal how ugly you are as a person.
I’ve come to be quite knowledgeable in regards to the 909, but there are people here that possess far greater technical knowledge than I could ever hope to have, and I was just trying to reach out for some advice. Anyhow I can see that Ian is trying to offer constructive advice and I appreciate that. Ironically I have been getting most of my information from the dada website that Ian has mentioned, for many months now.
I have also read the dada 606 upgrade manual (which also applies to the 909) and have learned a great deal. The only thing I was really unsure about was the opamp, which is something dada DOES NOT recommend changing at all. I had read in other places (not the dada website) some comments in regards to people changing opamps in the 909 and obtaining superior sonic results, and I became curious. Rather than taking those people at their word, I wanted to post here to get a broader view on the whole changing opamp subject, and suffice it to say I now have. So thankyou to everyone who have made positive contributions, much appreciated.
My remarks about the 909 sounding limited in the treble ect, are elaborated on in the very link Ian has provided. Furthermore, the info I provided about de-coupling is very similar to what dada recommend in their 606 upgrade manual. To let everyone know where I am coming from with the whole 909 upgrade inspiration, it has come to my attention that early on in the production of the 909, production was moved from the UK to China, and it was at this time original parts were substituted with cheaper components (for example the Capxon brand of capacitors instead of the original BHC).
I have been led to believe that capacitors tend to need changing after ten or so years, so given the age of my 909, and that fact that it houses Chinese capacitors that may not meet the original design spec, I am endeavouring to give my amp a service. I think Ian raises a good point about Naim gear ect introducing distortion and the Quad being a relatively straight line approach. However, having said that, I do suspect the 909 is capable of more than what most people have heard from it. Not by any fault of the original design, but by virtue of cheaper Chinese components.
Dada recommend a range of changes to the 909, changing PSU caps, changing some of the smaller capacitors and various other things. Since capacitors can have different sonic signatures, why not think about the kind of sound you like and choose something accordingly? Maybe using a quality Japanese capacitor such as Elna or Nichicon may liven the sound up a bit. Dada have recommend Nichicon, Panasonic and BHC in various locations.
For anyone who isn’t aware the fact of the matter is different capacitors have different sonic characteristics. Manufacturers all have different designs, different standards, different materials, different ethics and for damn sure they don’t share their R&D. How is it even remote they would have the same of anything? Someone wanting to change the PSU caps could try Mundorf, Nichicon, Panasonic, Elna, Kemet ect, they will NOT all sound the same.
Your post was following “two” prior posts that were clearly negative and sarcastic in nature, and your opening sentence was in disagreement with something I had stated previously. In that context, it felt like the third of a string of unkind quotes in a row from different people (the worst one being from mr stinky or whatever he calls himself), and it didn’t make me feel very welcome here.
Now I would like to address mr stinky/cranky or whatever he calls himself. I never got “pissy” with anyone for offering advice, I simply took offence at the negative remarks posted that had nothing at all to do with the subject matter. I’m a new member here asking for some advice, sarcasm and unkind words are completely uncalled for and do nothing except reveal how ugly you are as a person.
I’ve come to be quite knowledgeable in regards to the 909, but there are people here that possess far greater technical knowledge than I could ever hope to have, and I was just trying to reach out for some advice. Anyhow I can see that Ian is trying to offer constructive advice and I appreciate that. Ironically I have been getting most of my information from the dada website that Ian has mentioned, for many months now.
I have also read the dada 606 upgrade manual (which also applies to the 909) and have learned a great deal. The only thing I was really unsure about was the opamp, which is something dada DOES NOT recommend changing at all. I had read in other places (not the dada website) some comments in regards to people changing opamps in the 909 and obtaining superior sonic results, and I became curious. Rather than taking those people at their word, I wanted to post here to get a broader view on the whole changing opamp subject, and suffice it to say I now have. So thankyou to everyone who have made positive contributions, much appreciated.
My remarks about the 909 sounding limited in the treble ect, are elaborated on in the very link Ian has provided. Furthermore, the info I provided about de-coupling is very similar to what dada recommend in their 606 upgrade manual. To let everyone know where I am coming from with the whole 909 upgrade inspiration, it has come to my attention that early on in the production of the 909, production was moved from the UK to China, and it was at this time original parts were substituted with cheaper components (for example the Capxon brand of capacitors instead of the original BHC).
I have been led to believe that capacitors tend to need changing after ten or so years, so given the age of my 909, and that fact that it houses Chinese capacitors that may not meet the original design spec, I am endeavouring to give my amp a service. I think Ian raises a good point about Naim gear ect introducing distortion and the Quad being a relatively straight line approach. However, having said that, I do suspect the 909 is capable of more than what most people have heard from it. Not by any fault of the original design, but by virtue of cheaper Chinese components.
Dada recommend a range of changes to the 909, changing PSU caps, changing some of the smaller capacitors and various other things. Since capacitors can have different sonic signatures, why not think about the kind of sound you like and choose something accordingly? Maybe using a quality Japanese capacitor such as Elna or Nichicon may liven the sound up a bit. Dada have recommend Nichicon, Panasonic and BHC in various locations.
For anyone who isn’t aware the fact of the matter is different capacitors have different sonic characteristics. Manufacturers all have different designs, different standards, different materials, different ethics and for damn sure they don’t share their R&D. How is it even remote they would have the same of anything? Someone wanting to change the PSU caps could try Mundorf, Nichicon, Panasonic, Elna, Kemet ect, they will NOT all sound the same.
Come on folks, play nicely
Sonic77... you've actually started quite a few threads on the 909 I see, admittedly different aspects, however......
The questions you are asking are of the kind that generate very polarised replies, and one thing I can assure you of is that non of the contributors to your thread mean anything disrespectful to you as a person, its simply that they have lots of practical experience and have seen it all before.
We've all been there. If you believe changing some parts over is going to improve the sound then chances are it actually will... for you. Whether that chalk and cheese difference would be so apparent if you couldn't see the version you were listening to is generally where things start to fall apart.
My advice would be to listen to the advice you have received.
You seem very sure the Quads shortcomings are down purely to the components used and not perhaps the basic design topology. By all means change these parts and listen to the amp for an extended period afterwards.
At the end of the day you have only yourself to please sound wise.
I'd like to add, please make certain that your skills at replacing parts and soldering are up to the task. You need to use a controlled temperature soldering station, not a "stick" that plugs directly into the wall. Please proceed carefully and stop if you feel things are a bit beyond your comfort level. Otherwise I'll agree with what Mooly has said.
-Chris
-Chris
Oh oh oh!
I'd strongly, and last but not least to your favour, recommend you to follow the advices given to you in postings #3, #13 (last sentence!), and/or #20. All in all, please keep your hands off your 909, and, perhaps, you might want to come back after quite a few years' practicing!
And yes, this is no sarcasm!
Best regards!
The consensus is that capacitors do sound different, but i appreciate your suggestion and a cap refurb would indeed be a great place to start.
Panasonic are good solid caps, but i'm not sure their sonic character would be to my tastes. People often refer to the Panasonics as mellow with slightly recessed highs, and "tube like", which is the opposite of what i want.
I will try Nichicon FG and Elna silmic II and see which ones i prefer.
Anyone ever tired Mundorf Mlytics in the power supply?
Panasonic are good solid caps, but i'm not sure their sonic character would be to my tastes. People often refer to the Panasonics as mellow with slightly recessed highs, and "tube like", which is the opposite of what i want.
I will try Nichicon FG and Elna silmic II and see which ones i prefer.
Anyone ever tired Mundorf Mlytics in the power supply?
Consensus? By whom?
Better replace 'consensus' by 'audiophoolish blah-blah'.
Best regards!