Peter Daniel said:
Is this supposed to be the quote I asked for?
If so, where exactly in there do I say that listeners can't distinguish subtle changes in their systems and ascribe any perceived differences to bias?
I'm getting the feeling that I should perhaps stop posting here as it seems some here are either exceedingly paranoid to the point they see things that simply aren't there or have exceedingly poor English comprehension skills.
se
Getting Real
I think we all agree that objective measurements are perfectly substantiable, but because typical measurements do not nessecarily reveal all parameters, IMO/IME subjectiveism has a perfectly strong place in audio system evaluation when gauged by experienced and discerning ears.
Oh, and BTW, IMO stats produced by blind listening tests are typically thoroughly invalid, and I take little notice of these whatsoever.
Peter has mentioned that according to the base board that he is using in his new CDP, that he gets subjectively differing sounds according to the material ranging from first class to rotten.
I know the reasons for this variance, but I do not know of a suitable test to differentiate it objectively.
Eric.
I think we all agree that objective measurements are perfectly substantiable, but because typical measurements do not nessecarily reveal all parameters, IMO/IME subjectiveism has a perfectly strong place in audio system evaluation when gauged by experienced and discerning ears.
Oh, and BTW, IMO stats produced by blind listening tests are typically thoroughly invalid, and I take little notice of these whatsoever.
Peter has mentioned that according to the base board that he is using in his new CDP, that he gets subjectively differing sounds according to the material ranging from first class to rotten.
I know the reasons for this variance, but I do not know of a suitable test to differentiate it objectively.
Eric.
If I would adopt Steve Eddy's way of reasoning I wouldn't be in DIY audio. What for? I could hardly improve anything and I would still be using my first amp I did in 1982.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4572
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4572
Peter Daniel said:
WHAT!?
First, the "certain objective claims" I was referring to in that quote were those regarding the electrostatic charge on the capacitor's body. NOT claims of audibility which was the context of the original poster's accusation.
The ONLY thing I've said on the issue of audibility is that until the psychological aspect can be separated out, one is left with an ambiguity and NEITHER a claim of audibility NOR inaudibility can rightly be made.
That's not a dismissal. That's just pointing out some very basic logic.
Here. I've got a box. Inside is a ball. The ball may be red or the ball may be blue.
I can't rightly claim the ball is red because there's a definite possibility the ball is blue.
And I can't rightly claim that the ball is blue because there's a definite possibility that the ball is red.
The situation is left ambiguous until such time as one of the possibilities can be eliminated.
Is this too difficult to understand?
Second, where do you get that CHALLENGING a claim is synonymous with DISMISSING a claim? To challenge a claim leaves the issue open-ended. The one being challenged may substantiate their claim to the satisfaction of the one challenging in which case the challenge can end in agreement.
To dismiss a claim is to leave no such end open.
Do you see the difference here?
se
Listening Not Worrying
Yeah, I second that Peter.
Also if objective measurements were the only yardstick, hell I'd have to tell half my customers that they own bad measuring junk, and there would be no repairs work for me.
I find the worst systems belong to Country and Western fans and they typically love their systems to death - the secret is that they are listening to the music and not the reproduction quality.
For many owners specs don't matter a hoot, so long as they can enjoy their favorite recordings.
Eric.
Yeah, I second that Peter.
Also if objective measurements were the only yardstick, hell I'd have to tell half my customers that they own bad measuring junk, and there would be no repairs work for me.
I find the worst systems belong to Country and Western fans and they typically love their systems to death - the secret is that they are listening to the music and not the reproduction quality.
For many owners specs don't matter a hoot, so long as they can enjoy their favorite recordings.
Eric.
Re: Getting Real
Certainly subjective listening is perfectly fine for evaluating one's audio system. It's the only way as far as I'm concerned.
But that's not quite the same as determining actual audible differences. In determining actual audible differences, subjective listening in and of itself has limitations due to psychology. And because of this, until any psychological factors are accounted for and separated out, one cannot necessarily reach any conclusions.
Hold on there.
Weren't you the one who just took me to task for supposedly dismissing things? "Thoroughly invalid" seems to be quite a dismissal wouldn't you say?
So, what, specifically, is thoroughly invalid about blind listening tests?
But how do you KNOW that his subjective perceptions are in fact due to actual audibility in the first place? It seems the only way you can know this is to completely dismiss the very real effects of psychology when it comes to subjective perception.
For one who says they're tired of others dismissing things (which they haven't actually dismissed but you somehow believe they have), you sure seem to be doing a lot of dismissing yourself.
Or is it somehow different when you're the one doing the dismissing?
se
mrfeedback said:
Certainly subjective listening is perfectly fine for evaluating one's audio system. It's the only way as far as I'm concerned.
But that's not quite the same as determining actual audible differences. In determining actual audible differences, subjective listening in and of itself has limitations due to psychology. And because of this, until any psychological factors are accounted for and separated out, one cannot necessarily reach any conclusions.
Hold on there.
Weren't you the one who just took me to task for supposedly dismissing things? "Thoroughly invalid" seems to be quite a dismissal wouldn't you say?
So, what, specifically, is thoroughly invalid about blind listening tests?
But how do you KNOW that his subjective perceptions are in fact due to actual audibility in the first place? It seems the only way you can know this is to completely dismiss the very real effects of psychology when it comes to subjective perception.
For one who says they're tired of others dismissing things (which they haven't actually dismissed but you somehow believe they have), you sure seem to be doing a lot of dismissing yourself.
Or is it somehow different when you're the one doing the dismissing?
se
Eddy Currents
Typical Blind Testing : Invalid IMO because of test conditions - ie unfamiliar room, unfamiliar music, unfamiliar system.
In favorable circumstance both myself and flatmate could discern which of 6 interconnects was fitted perfectly reliably.
"But how do you KNOW that his subjective perceptions are in fact due to actual audibility in the first place?"
Because I have been there and done that and gotten similar results, and I understand that Peter has been experimenting for a very long time, has good ears, and does not subscribe to sonic expectations, only sonics results.
"In determining actual audible differences, subjective listening in and of itself has limitations due to psychology."
IMO psychology does not enter into it.
Eric.
Typical Blind Testing : Invalid IMO because of test conditions - ie unfamiliar room, unfamiliar music, unfamiliar system.
In favorable circumstance both myself and flatmate could discern which of 6 interconnects was fitted perfectly reliably.
"But how do you KNOW that his subjective perceptions are in fact due to actual audibility in the first place?"
Because I have been there and done that and gotten similar results, and I understand that Peter has been experimenting for a very long time, has good ears, and does not subscribe to sonic expectations, only sonics results.
"In determining actual audible differences, subjective listening in and of itself has limitations due to psychology."
IMO psychology does not enter into it.
Eric.
Peter Daniel said:
No, it's not dismissing. Just because I believe something to be invalid, doesn't mean I refuse to listen to and consider any arguments to the contrary. If I were dismissing it, I'd just stuff my fingers in my ears and shout "NYAH! NYAH! NYAH! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! NYAH! NYAH! NYAH!"
That's closed minded and dismissive.
I've challenged claims I believed to be invalid before and upon listening to and considering arguments to the contrary, have changed my mind. Usually it's when I do the challenging off the cuff and don't give the issue as much thought as I should have and ended up overlooking something.
However I always give counter arguments full consideration. And I'm never afraid to admit to having made an error. And I've made some doozies in the past. I just pick myself up, laugh at myself, thank the person who corrected me and learn from it.
se
Re: Listening Not Worrying
Why do you keep referring to this "objective measurements" stuff? Determining actual audiblity has nothing to do with "objective measurements." Determining actual audibility simply determines audibility to an objective standard of proof is all. An objective standard of proof being one in which subjective bias has been separated out. Has nothing to do with objective measurements.
se
mrfeedback said:
Why do you keep referring to this "objective measurements" stuff? Determining actual audiblity has nothing to do with "objective measurements." Determining actual audibility simply determines audibility to an objective standard of proof is all. An objective standard of proof being one in which subjective bias has been separated out. Has nothing to do with objective measurements.
se
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