Hey Dirt, I can't say that I've been blessed with a silent environment either.
Having worked as a fitter with the South Australian Railways for 5 years I've had the wonders of rattle guns, compressed air tools, grinders, MIG Welders, diesel electric locos, engine room servicing, Westinghouse air brakes etc. Plus diesel, kero, white spirits, metho, cutting fluid, exhaust fumes, xylene (!!!), hydraulic fluid and asbestos.
My hearing has a 25dB noisefloor spike at 6k due to tinnitus but otherwise runs flat out to well over 16k.
As I said, it's not about hearing deterioration, it's about learning how to hear.
I still don't know about the whole Linn thing of learning how to hear "tunes" but they've drastically changed their theology since 1990. Now they sell digital gear and (cos they want to sell home theatre stuff) don't consider more than one pair of speakers in the one room to be the work of Satan. I still believe the whole "tunes" thing was a load of bollox used to justify overpriced kit that was tonally abberant and couldn't image to save itself. I praise PRaT as much as the next man, but not at the expense of everything else.
...But that's a whole nother diatribe apart from the "good components make no difference" side of things.
Why do the deaf and cloth-eared argue about audio quality at all?
Drew.
as long as the background is louder than my tinnitus noise floor...
Having worked as a fitter with the South Australian Railways for 5 years I've had the wonders of rattle guns, compressed air tools, grinders, MIG Welders, diesel electric locos, engine room servicing, Westinghouse air brakes etc. Plus diesel, kero, white spirits, metho, cutting fluid, exhaust fumes, xylene (!!!), hydraulic fluid and asbestos.
My hearing has a 25dB noisefloor spike at 6k due to tinnitus but otherwise runs flat out to well over 16k.
As I said, it's not about hearing deterioration, it's about learning how to hear.
I still don't know about the whole Linn thing of learning how to hear "tunes" but they've drastically changed their theology since 1990. Now they sell digital gear and (cos they want to sell home theatre stuff) don't consider more than one pair of speakers in the one room to be the work of Satan. I still believe the whole "tunes" thing was a load of bollox used to justify overpriced kit that was tonally abberant and couldn't image to save itself. I praise PRaT as much as the next man, but not at the expense of everything else.
...But that's a whole nother diatribe apart from the "good components make no difference" side of things.
Why do the deaf and cloth-eared argue about audio quality at all?
Drew.
as long as the background is louder than my tinnitus noise floor...
DrewP said:
not to doubt your experience but there may be a difference between what you think you can hear and what you can hear.
Case in point is the vaccum amp vs. ss amp test listed at Leach's site. In a controlled environment, no test subjects (people who are professional musicians claiming they can definitely hear vaccum sound) can reliably tell those two systems apart.
There is no doubt that some of us can reliably and statistically hear sound that others cannot (I am half deaf). But that's more like exceptions than to rules.
As someone had pointed long ago, there are quite a few of those listening tests floating around the net, with sizable prizes. If folks are that good of a listeners, it is far easier to make money taking the tests than to sell $5K chip amps.
Try BGs
Hi Magnus,
I urge you to try Black Gates in the GC as the main Power Supply Caps and in the NFB position let them burn in and then compare to your bog standard amp.
I use Rubycon ZL and ZA all over the place but I think the BGs are rather better, I'll try the SILMICs as I hate the price of BGs and the lack of any technical data (yes I have the 'Technical Bulletins').
Anyone come across a better cap than BG for PSU purposes?
Mozfet
Hi Magnus,
I urge you to try Black Gates in the GC as the main Power Supply Caps and in the NFB position let them burn in and then compare to your bog standard amp.
I use Rubycon ZL and ZA all over the place but I think the BGs are rather better, I'll try the SILMICs as I hate the price of BGs and the lack of any technical data (yes I have the 'Technical Bulletins').
Anyone come across a better cap than BG for PSU purposes?
Mozfet
Is there a difference? and does it even matter provided you are happy? e.g. "I'll enjoy this even if it kills me!"millwood said:
As far as exotic components are concerned, don't forget the other end of the sectrum and that is not using plainly UNSUITABLE parts for a particular application e.g. electrolytic or ceramic caps in the signal path. Me? I try to use FKP (foil and film) or MKP (metallised film) caps. Quite ordinary price and way better than electro's or ceramics.
DrewP said:
Because only those brave enough to stand up and say "to me, there is no difference" stop us sliding wholesale into mysticism, disappointment, and the crazy, crazy world of Peter Belt.
Marcus' questions about gravity, altitude and the Earth's magnetic field have gone unanswered. Why do these questions meet with the response "you're taking the p*ss", whereas those about, say, heatsink insulator material go on in all seriousness for weeks?
Either everything matters, or some things don't matter at all.
Cheers
IH
IanHarvey said:
I guess to have them answered, he would have to check with different forum.
We mostly discuss audio electronics here, not physics. Trying different heatsink insulator materials is much easier and within everybody's reach, while checking for instance influence of gravity, altitude and the Earth's magnetic field is much harder and requires specialistic equipment, which is not in everybodys' reach.
And probably not that much interesting either.
Peter Daniel said:
Sometimes I wonder if the differences I hear are just in my head, but on two occasions I have definently 100% heard a difference. The first is comparing my maggies to most cone speakers, and second was comparing my HK PA5800 amp to my Monarchy Audio SM70 amp. But in both cases I account the differences in sound quality to different design approaches and overall better parts.
This reminds me of an expirement in Sport Compact Car magazine several years ago. They got a pretty well known driver to drive this Lancer EVO (a 6 I believe). Anyways they put a rubbermade container in the back and they would put varying bags of sand in the back that were 50lb,100lb, and 200lbs or nothing at all. The point was to see if the driver could tell when there was weight in there. It turned out he could almost always tell the 200lb, sometimes the 100lb, and never the 50lb. Yet in the car circles I hear poeple say they took out the back seats and only fill the tank half way and they can feel the difference. I myself only fill the tank halfway for the same reason, can I tell for sure? Who knows.
I would buy "better" products if the price difference is ok. I will upgrade caps from say a $2.50 cap to a $5.50 cap, but I would not go from a $2.50 cap to a $170 cap. Nor would I probably up grade from a 1% panasonic resistor to some highpriced resistor thats running on 5% tolerences.
Now if they could make silver mica caps in the uF range, than maybe I would pay for those, but only because they are so well proven to be extremely stable. I guess thats the point to me, build it to make it stable.
IanHarvey said:
I don't think one has to be brave enough to say that. Majority of people on this planet think like that.
Only the small number of dedicated audiophiles and people who really care about audio, claim that there is more to audio quality that meets the eye.
To me, those are the brave ones.
Circlotron said:
Just read the LM4780 spec: they say in "high performance consideration" section that THD performance can be improved by either not using electrolytics in the signal path or (to save money) using smaller value premium capacitors in parallel with larger electrolytics. I don't know if anybody can hear the difference, but at least THD can be measured.
Peter 100% correct
As an engineer at Texas Instruments, I have tested all types of components. I use to design high speed sample and hold circuits and digital controlled AGC’s. Man you just can't put any kind of cap in a high speed SH, it most have super low DA, and you only find this in high end film. Also, you should read up on the effect of DA and ESR.
As for opamps the same is true, all you have to do is run FFT in the circuit UT. Of course, there are many other performance factors used when selecting quality opamps. If there was not we all use LM709 or LM741's.
The same is true for precision resistors; as they must hold their value over time and temperature and not generate LF noise or affect the circuit’s bandwidth. If this were not true, we'd all still be using carbon comps and Vishay would have remained an obscure company from Israel.
As your handle implies, NoKnowledge you have proven that point.
As an engineer at Texas Instruments, I have tested all types of components. I use to design high speed sample and hold circuits and digital controlled AGC’s. Man you just can't put any kind of cap in a high speed SH, it most have super low DA, and you only find this in high end film. Also, you should read up on the effect of DA and ESR.
As for opamps the same is true, all you have to do is run FFT in the circuit UT. Of course, there are many other performance factors used when selecting quality opamps. If there was not we all use LM709 or LM741's.
The same is true for precision resistors; as they must hold their value over time and temperature and not generate LF noise or affect the circuit’s bandwidth. If this were not true, we'd all still be using carbon comps and Vishay would have remained an obscure company from Israel.
As your handle implies, NoKnowledge you have proven that point.
Physics
Ok magnus here ya go:
#1gravity:Yes anything that has mass gravity(mass attraction) will affect.But if a cone in placed in the vertical direction the linear motion(of the cone) is hardly affected.(the force is downward)
#2Earths magnetic field: A magnetic field is measured in a unit called gauss.The field is very very weak(thats why a compass needle is very light) and will not affect the magnetic field of a driver to any degree.
#3Magnetic shielding:A magnetic field falls off at a rate inverse to the cube of the distance.(I1/I2)=(D2/D1)^3. Unless the magnets are within lets say 3" of each other there will be no real effect.
#4Box size @ altitude:The velocity of a sound wave is based on density and elasticity of a given medium.At altitudes the velocity actually slows down(air is less dense) and attenuates faster,But its the same density inside the cab when the driver is in a rest state.So the math used to calculate volume(of the cab) is the same regardless of altitude.
ron
Ok magnus here ya go:
#1gravity:Yes anything that has mass gravity(mass attraction) will affect.But if a cone in placed in the vertical direction the linear motion(of the cone) is hardly affected.(the force is downward)
#2Earths magnetic field: A magnetic field is measured in a unit called gauss.The field is very very weak(thats why a compass needle is very light) and will not affect the magnetic field of a driver to any degree.
#3Magnetic shielding:A magnetic field falls off at a rate inverse to the cube of the distance.(I1/I2)=(D2/D1)^3. Unless the magnets are within lets say 3" of each other there will be no real effect.
#4Box size @ altitude:The velocity of a sound wave is based on density and elasticity of a given medium.At altitudes the velocity actually slows down(air is less dense) and attenuates faster,But its the same density inside the cab when the driver is in a rest state.So the math used to calculate volume(of the cab) is the same regardless of altitude.
ron
Re: Peter 100% correct
does it make a difference the frequency your circuitry works and the frequency audio circuitry works? Not knowing anything about what you have done (other than high speed but how high is high speed?), would you agree that something neccessary for a 1Ghz SH circuitry may not be equally neccessary for a 1Khz circuitry?
Otherwise, those DC motor guys would insist that we don't need any device with Ft>1Mhz.
No?
jewilson said:
does it make a difference the frequency your circuitry works and the frequency audio circuitry works? Not knowing anything about what you have done (other than high speed but how high is high speed?), would you agree that something neccessary for a 1Ghz SH circuitry may not be equally neccessary for a 1Khz circuitry?
Otherwise, those DC motor guys would insist that we don't need any device with Ft>1Mhz.
No?
Circlotron said:
It depends. If I am filthy rich and have unlimited resources, no.
If you are like me with limited resources, knowing that I can get the same sound without spending $10K on a moon rock helps.
Now, how many of us have unlimited resources? I have a lot of rocks to sell to you, and i give forum membesr a 20% discount,
.Sorry millwood, just re-read your post. The order of magnitude between a magnetic field in a conductor and the earths field is vast.However , a weak field ex: inputs MAY(<--keyword) be affected but IMHO would still be so weak that IF you could hear the difference you better be renting your ears out as a reviewer.Sadly after years in industry with all its associated noise i cant.
ron
ron
Peter Daniel said:
I beg to differ. For instance, every high-street consumer electronics shop, and every "hi-fi" magazine which recommends even the most mundane products ask you to believe in interconnect and mains-cable mystique, exotic stands for this and that, and all manner of audio fluffy dice and go-faster stripes.
One of the things I find most liberating about self-built kit is that it lets you explore all these issues for yourself without having the man in the shop telling you what you ought to be hearing.
Cheers
IH
Ok
Roncla.
1: I know, but it would not be very practical to put the tweeters/mid vertical?
2: I do realize earth magnetic fiels are very weak, but the difference between plastic and wodden feets on an amp is weak too. I just tried to make a point.
3: Not even with a giant sub on the backside of the box and a tweeter on the front within the 3 inches?
4: What I was thinking was a total sealed box, if I would put it in vacum it would pop out? On higher altitude it would rest in a postion futher out from the box, thanks to the preassure compensation. I realize now that it wouldn't effect the box volume, but could it effect the driver in the long term resting and playing in an other postion? I know that it is nothing like a totaly sealed box, I just wonder about the theory?
One other thought. So to be able to tell if some exotic components really sounds better and just not different, wouldn't it be fair to say that you first would have to have everything in your system optimal. In my experience loudspeakers is the part of the system that effects the sound the most even I hear big differnces, so I guess all this super hearing people already own
the optimal speakers or close too to be able to tell if their improvments makes better sound or just a different sound.
I never hear them talking that much about the rest of their systems, as they do about this exotic components.
I haven't found the optimal speaker yet, with the perfect enclosure, the best drivers that work together, the perfect crossover point, the perfect materials, total flat respons, just the best of everything. But I guess you guys have found them so allow me to ask a few questions so I could start to hear all this difference in amp feets and so on.
1. What kind of boxes do you use, design, volume, materials?
2. What kind of elements, sizes, brands, how do they work together, reason of your choice and so on?
3. Do you use active, passive or pre biased passive xovers? Where do you crosover and why?
4. What kind of damping, where and how much and why?
5. What kind of cabel, Filter components and interconnects?
6. What kind of colors and finish do you use, I'm sure you hear differences here too?
7. Why have you choosed this kind of speakers for your room?
I'm just curious, sorry if you see this as negativity again.
/M
Go Milwood!
Roncla.
1: I know, but it would not be very practical to put the tweeters/mid vertical?
2: I do realize earth magnetic fiels are very weak, but the difference between plastic and wodden feets on an amp is weak too. I just tried to make a point.
3: Not even with a giant sub on the backside of the box and a tweeter on the front within the 3 inches?
4: What I was thinking was a total sealed box, if I would put it in vacum it would pop out? On higher altitude it would rest in a postion futher out from the box, thanks to the preassure compensation. I realize now that it wouldn't effect the box volume, but could it effect the driver in the long term resting and playing in an other postion? I know that it is nothing like a totaly sealed box, I just wonder about the theory?
One other thought. So to be able to tell if some exotic components really sounds better and just not different, wouldn't it be fair to say that you first would have to have everything in your system optimal. In my experience loudspeakers is the part of the system that effects the sound the most even I hear big differnces, so I guess all this super hearing people already own
the optimal speakers or close too to be able to tell if their improvments makes better sound or just a different sound.
I never hear them talking that much about the rest of their systems, as they do about this exotic components.
I haven't found the optimal speaker yet, with the perfect enclosure, the best drivers that work together, the perfect crossover point, the perfect materials, total flat respons, just the best of everything. But I guess you guys have found them so allow me to ask a few questions so I could start to hear all this difference in amp feets and so on.
1. What kind of boxes do you use, design, volume, materials?
2. What kind of elements, sizes, brands, how do they work together, reason of your choice and so on?
3. Do you use active, passive or pre biased passive xovers? Where do you crosover and why?
4. What kind of damping, where and how much and why?
5. What kind of cabel, Filter components and interconnects?
6. What kind of colors and finish do you use, I'm sure you hear differences here too?
7. Why have you choosed this kind of speakers for your room?
I'm just curious, sorry if you see this as negativity again.
/M
Go Milwood!
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